Is an L&C power supply suitable for a Celeron 2.2GHz PC?

[ratdude747]

yeah... just gut and toss. not worth it. before long it will get to a point where you hav pretty much built a power supply from scratch. those parts will fry in that psu no matter how good they are just because the rest of it is so shitty.

[Leopard]

I'd also replace the primary capacitors. I've seen multiple CapXon primaries fail open in CWT built Antecs. And as you can see, the silkscreens are larger than the caps so you could use higher rated replacements there.

[Newbie2]

Originally Posted by everell

Hello again - I don't want to seem rude, but want to say that even with all those nice improvements to your L&C power supply, if the 5vsb circuit gives trouble, it takes down the whole power supply. The importance of a GOOD 5vsb circuit cannot be overemphasized.

I have a Raptor model LC-B400ATX very much like yours. The critical capacitor in the 5vsb circuit in both your and my power supply is C8, 22 Mfd at 50 volts. If nothing else, change this capacitor due to age and replace it with a low esr capacitor.

I ran some tests on three different brands of power supplies - Bestec, SeaSonic, and the Raptor L&C. For the Raptor, I used two different values of capacitor in the test, 22 Mfd and 47 Mfd (to see if increasing the capacitance would help). The problem is that when the capacitor C8 goes bad (esr increases) the 5vsb voltage goes up. Here is a table to show my results:

ESR series resistance 22 Mfd 47Mfd
6 ohms 5.07 volts 5.07 volts
12.5 ohms 5.08 volts 5.08 volts
25 ohms 5.57 volts 5.58 volts
50 ohms 6.69 volts 6.70 volts
100 ohms 8.65 volts 8.66 volts
150 ohms 9.48 volts 9.52 volts
200 ohms 10.63 volts 10.72 volts

It is interesting that when you go into BIOS and look at your "computer health" voltage readings, the 5vsb voltage is seldom included. But IF you lose 5vsb, nothing works! When the 5vsb goes high, the mother board can also go up in smoke.

I made some oscilloscope pictures of what the signal looks like across capacitor C8 in series with these resistors. I can post them if you are interested.

Okay, I will replace C8 with a new high-quality low ESR capacitor to reduce the chances of it failing and messing up the +5VSB rail.

Originally Posted by Leopard

I'd also replace the primary capacitors. I've seen multiple CapXon primaries fail open in CWT built Antecs. And as you can see, the silkscreens are larger than the caps so you could use higher rated replacements there.

I'm planning on doing that.

Originally Posted by ratdude747

yeah... just gut and toss. not worth it. before long it will get to a point where you hav pretty much built a power supply from scratch. those parts will fry in that psu no matter how good they are just because the rest of it is so shitty.

Considering the amount of time and effort I've spent on this power supply, it wouldn't feel right to gut and toss it right now.

[everell]

I would like to express an opinion - that I am quite proud of you for the work you have done on this power supply to make it better and safer. For many years I used the "gut and toss" plan, that is, if power supply gives problems, remove it from computer, toss it, and replace it with a new one. It has been only in the past six months or so that I have actually opened and studied what is inside the power supply box. So what you have gained from this is more than a better power supply, but a better understanding of how power supplies work, and how to make one work better. No power supply is perfect. Something can be learned from any power supply, even the Bestec and Powmax. I commend you because you have opened the box and made something better, something most people just won't do.

I have just recently acquired another mother board to work on - AZZI KT3-AV. I am sure someone will jump in and say it is just a POS, just gut and toss. I think the real POS is the vocabulary being used. This website has an international audience. The vocabulary we use represents the character of our country. Wouldn't it be nice if we could all improve our vocabulary as much as you have improved your L&C power supply.

ps - here is a picture of my L&C power supply

[Newbie2]

Originally Posted by everell

I would like to express an opinion - that I am quite proud of you for the work you have done on this power supply to make it better and safer. For many years I used the "gut and toss" plan, that is, if power supply gives problems, remove it from computer, toss it, and replace it with a new one. It has been only in the past six months or so that I have actually opened and studied what is inside the power supply box. So what you have gained from this is more than a better power supply, but a better understanding of how power supplies work, and how to make one work better. No power supply is perfect. Something can be learned from any power supply, even the Bestec and Powmax. I commend you because you have opened the box and made something better, something most people just won't do.

I have just recently acquired another mother board to work on - AZZI KT3-AV. I am sure someone will jump in and say it is just a POS, just gut and toss. I think the real POS is the vocabulary being used. This website has an international audience. The vocabulary we use represents the character of our country. Wouldn't it be nice if we could all improve our vocabulary as much as you have improved your L&C power supply.

ps - here is a picture of my L&C power supply

Thank you everell for your wonderful essay.

Yes, I am learning some more on how the power supply functions, thanks to my L&C power supply project.

I think people here should respect the fact of us trying to improve components such as power supplies and even motherboards that are normally considered low quality junk.

I am sure my L&C power supply will reliably power my Celeron 2.2GHz computer for a long time after all my modifications are complete on it. I think the people at Deer/L&C over in China should be looking at this thread to see why it's important to not skimp on so many vital components in their computer power supplies for reliability, even if it means spending a few cents more on every power supply made.

everell, did you add the components for the input filtering section on the primary side of your L&C power supply or did it come like that?

[everell]

About 6 months ago, I decided to "open the box" and find out why so many power supplies are failing. I had a couple of discards at work to look at, and I found a computer shop which sells me "broke" power supplies for a buck apiece. So I now have about 40 or so laying around the house. The AT supplies I gut for parts - and save lots of money on repairs. The ATX supplies are the ones I attempt to fix. I have managed to fix nearly all of them - including the L&C in my last post. It had four seperate diodes in the input, one of which was shorted. I replaced all four with the bridge you see in the picture. I also found one bad capacitor on the output side. I have not tried to make any improvements to this particular power supply because the main switching transformer is so small compared to other power supplies. The first psu I began experimenting with was a Bestec ATX-250 12E simply because I couldn't get the 5vsb to work right. That is when I developed the modification circuit using the DM311 chip which works quite well. I also experimented with a 200 watt SeaSonic which was very similar to the Bestec - with a 5vsb circuit putting out about 12 volts. I changed it to the DM311 circuit also. Problem solved. The DM311 pwm chip circuit is so much superior to the 2 transistor circuit I was fighting.

The size of the main switching transformer will determine how much power you can get out of the power supply. Also, the size of the switching transformer in the 5vsb circuit will determine how much power you can get out of the 5vsb line. So for experimenting, I simply went with power supplies having the larger transformers.

That does not mean that your power supply is inherently bad, just not capable of putting out as much power. Again, I am pleased at what you have accomplished, and hope I have contributed a little something that has been helpful.

[everell]

I see I didn't answer all of your question. The coil and capacitor filtering on the input side of the power supply was there originally, all I did was to add the bridge diode. This one also had the PI coils already installed.

I appreciate the help you gave in posting that schematic. I have worked on several power supplies which had a pwm chip labelled 2005 or 2003. Others have called it the chip of the year thinking that the number represented the year the power supply was made rather than being the chip identification number. So your schematic gave the information about what is in the chip. Still don't know its proper identification number.

My pc board had the 16 pin 2005 chip, but the board looks like it has the option for a 20 pin chip. I am wondering what other chip L&C is using in their power supplies.

Do you know of any website having schematics for the Bestec series?

[kc8adu]

Originally Posted by everell

I would like to express an opinion - that I am quite proud of you for the work you have done on this power supply to make it better and safer. For many years I used the "gut and toss" plan, that is, if power supply gives problems, remove it from computer, toss it, and replace it with a new one. It has been only in the past six months or so that I have actually opened and studied what is inside the power supply box. So what you have gained from this is more than a better power supply, but a better understanding of how power supplies work, and how to make one work better. No power supply is perfect. Something can be learned from any power supply, even the Bestec and Powmax. I commend you because you have opened the box and made something better, something most people just won't do.

I have just recently acquired another mother board to work on - AZZI KT3-AV. I am sure someone will jump in and say it is just a POS, just gut and toss. I think the real POS is the vocabulary being used. This website has an international audience. The vocabulary we use represents the character of our country. Wouldn't it be nice if we could all improve our vocabulary as much as you have improved your L&C power supply.

ps - here is a picture of my L&C power supply

the l&c unit is a great practice unit.
it is not good to use in anything you care about.
so keep on learning.the practice may prevent a foulup on a unit that is worth saving.
i too rebuild stuff to use for myself.i select units worthy of my time and parts.
i also have applied lipstick to a pig just to see what could be done.
you still have a pig but you learned something.

[everell]

Good afternoon kc8adu. I am curious. Now that we know you have put lipstick on a pig, which power supplies do you consider to be worthy of saving, which have you made improvements on, and why did you select them? Many opinions on this thread that the L&C isn't the "best" power supply for a rebuild, and a few have even commented about Bestec. So in all seriousness, what is your opinion on the matter?

[ratdude747]

and why are you so eager to save such a crappy power supply?

[momaka]

Originally Posted by Newbie2

I realized that without screwing the PCB to the case and putting the top cover on, the noise was present.

Yeah, that's not a such a good idea . Something could have shorted if the PCB moved around. Would have been a shame if the L&C burned after so much work and before you could even test it. Burning while testing, now that a bit more fun .
----
I was looking around on allelectronics and found these:
http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a...0A-100V/1.html
http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a...Y-DIODE/1.html
Either one should work fine in place of those 12v diodes. Of course the 16A diodes is only a few cents cheaper so why not get that anyways.
I also found a cheap bridge rectifier... 2 pieces for $1, not bad I guess
http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a...IFIER/-/1.html
----
Everell: I remember that thread when you tested the Seasonic, Bestec, and Raptor; it was quite interesting. If my memory is correct, the Raptor LC-B400ATX actually did pretty well compared to the Seasonic and the Bestec as they both seemed to be more sensitive to that cap's ESR.
The circuit you designed doesn't seem too hard to build, and it sure would be nice to have the extra 5vsb protection. Only thing that might get in the way is sourcing the DM311 controller. I see Mouser has some in stock, but not Digikey.
Also, I'm not sure if Newbie2's L&C has protections on the other rails. Might want to address that too if we go that far .

Originally Posted by everell

Others have called it the chip of the year thinking that the number represented the year the power supply was made rather than being the chip identification number.

I think it was me who said this in the Power Supply Pictorial Discussion thread.
The numbers on those PWM ICs lead to nowhere. And so far I've seen 2001, 2003, 2004, and 2005 as the ID number. I know I'm no expert when it comes to PWM ICs, but I think the manufacturer here just put the production year as the ID number (hence the lack of datasheets). And if you look at the transformers on your Raptor, notice how they're also labeled 2005. Date codes on the original caps probably indicate 2005 as well.
Some of the newer Deer PSUs, however, use another PWM IC - DR-0183.
Makes me wonder if all of those aren't just cheap TL494/DBL494 knock-offs.

Originally Posted by ratdude747

and why are you so eager to save such a crappy power supply?

And why not? Tossing and buying new doesn't make you learn anything.
Now I understand if you're running a shop and you don't have much time. In that case, repairing a crappy power supply just wouldn't make sense. But that's not the case in this thread.

[370forlife]

I have a friend that has a Powork "650W" psu that some caps vented on, and he would give it to me for free. It actually has a pretty big main transformer, I would say good for 300-350W. (jonnyguru did this one on the bargain basement roundup, it actually got up to 384W before puking- http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php...Story3&reid=71 )

Just has no transient filter. I think it would be a good first one, as there isn't much I would have to do other than caps and transient filter. I have a few bad bestecs I can scavenge those parts from.

[everell]

Hi 370forlife. If you want a challenge, why not rework one of those Bestec units. My thread with the DM311 modification works great, but it is NOT the only possible solution. I recently found the TOPSwitch-II Family of 3 terminal PWM switches, chip identification is TOP221-227, I'm curious how it might work in a 5vsb circuit. Google the device and check out the datasheet.

Now I feel I am hijacking Newbie2's thread. I've been talking about everything except to answer his question - Is an L&C power supply suitable for a Celeron 2.2GHz PC?

Truthfully ........... I don't know.

[Krankshaft]

I've come across the Topswitch line before mostly in simpler lower wattage switchers.

The Topswitch is a PWM IC and switching FET all in one package.

One of my Samsung LCDs runs off one.

As a matter of fact when I first encountered a PSU with one I was puzzled because I couldn't find a PWM IC.

They have been seen in lower wattage computer switchers.

[ratdude747]

he does not need to buy new, he metioned hehad a spare that was much nicer than this pos. learning is good, killing a pereftly good system is not. 2.2 celerons are nt that bad. id aim for pII or pI for this kind of testing. i still use a p3 800 running ubuntu and that is slower than a celeron 2.2. it is dumb in my opinion to gamble with a system like that, since he has a working spare. someone out there would love to have a celeron 2.2 system and so be grateful of what you have and don't gamble when you do not have to.

[ratdude747]

and to answer the thread's original question:

no, it is not suitable. it is like putting a lawnmower engine in a sportscar and expecting to go over 100 mph.

[Newbie2]

Originally Posted by everell

Now I feel I am hijacking Newbie2's thread. I've been talking about everything except to answer his question - Is an L&C power supply suitable for a Celeron 2.2GHz PC?

Truthfully ........... I don't know.

everell, this thread's discussion is now an L&C improvement thread, it's no longer the original title.

[Newbie2]

Originally Posted by ratdude747

he does not need to buy new, he metioned hehad a spare that was much nicer than this pos. learning is good, killing a pereftly good system is not. 2.2 celerons are nt that bad. id aim for pII or pI for this kind of testing. i still use a p3 800 running ubuntu and that is slower than a celeron 2.2. it is dumb in my opinion to gamble with a system like that, since he has a working spare. someone out there would love to have a celeron 2.2 system and so be grateful of what you have and don't gamble when you do not have to.

Yeah you'd love a Celeron 2.2 because your other computers are obsolete 10 year old slow computers that can't run anything new and decent (except for Ubuntu I see).

It's like if you had some old rusty car from the 80s then you'd love to have a 1999 Dodge Neon for example, let's say I have a nice 2009 Porsche 911 Carrera so I wouldn't care about a 1999 Dodge Neon as it would be a junker car.

[Newbie2]

My L&C PSU project will unfortunately be delayed for about a week or two, since I now have a VIA P4PA-UL motherboard that's in serious need of a recap (blown GSC all over, replacement caps on the way) and it'll be a nice motherboard for my Celeron 2.2 if I can get it working. My father found it in the trash at his work a while ago, I didn't have time to start working on it until now.

Parts for my PSU are also on the way to me, so after the motherboard I have is concluded then I will continue work on my PSU.

[ratdude747]

stop being a damn troll. i do have newer computers, the p3 is my slowest... lets see what i own:

p3 compaq presario 7000

p4 presscot 603 in an emachines t5026

athlon xp 1800+ on an asus a7v8x

asus eee pc 1000he (maybe 1-2 months old?)

3 reasons why we must have such fast cpus:

bloated os's like vista and osx

gaming (i understand on this one... i admittedly do little hardcore gaming... if i did id buy a Wii or a ps3)

servers (understood)


as for the car, you are more correct than you meant. we used to have a 87 chevy c10 truck but it rusted out last year and had to be sold for scrap. i was supposed to have the 97 s10 but that went to dad to commute with and i have no car. the only things here i cold afford are:

93 buick (nice options but a granny car) $875

or a saturn 4-door with twin-cam, cracked windshield, and "runs rough" painted on the window. $700

so a 99 dodge neon is not bad in my case.


just remember, those who keep thier nose in the air have one hell of a time spotting an incoming punch.