Question about 85c caps vs. 105c caps

[Wester547]

Re: Question about 85c caps vs. 105c caps

Well, I'd rather not set mine to spin down at all (to be honest). But I should be more clear as to why I'm asking:

I want to reduce the heat output in the system by spinning down the second and hottest HDD in there (ST3160023A). Doing that has shown amelioration in temperature for the components, judging by the temperature sensors. Usually, you would have to spin it up and down in order to do that, but I tricked Windows XP into keeping it spun down once I spin it down by disabling the drive in device manager after I set the idle timer in HDD Scan (I set it to 30 seconds to give me enough time to do that). Then it just powers off after being spun down rather than ever spinning back up until next I boot up the computer. What I want to know is, is such an abrupt speed change a problem for the hard drive after only a few minutes of spinning up (as it naturally spins up when the system is powered on), as otherwise it would just be spinning (uninterrupted) for a few hours until power down?

I guess it would be more wear, but since I'm more worried about the temperatures of the board and capacitors, I may as well leave it like that (the ST3160023A runs rather warm for a HDD, since I have no extra airflow over the HDDs). I'm only keeping the drive in there because it has an installation of Windows that still has data on it itself.

[Wester547]

Re: Question about 85c caps vs. 105c caps

Based on the info in this thread of discussion, it's also quite possible for the original, faulty PSU to be the culprit with regard to the dead CMOS battery, right?

[PCBONEZ]

Re: Question about 85c caps vs. 105c caps

Based on the info in this thread of discussion, it's also quite possible for the original, faulty PSU to be the culprit with regard to the dead CMOS battery, right?

Not likely.
More likely a small mobo cap.
Even more likely the battery is just worn out or you bought a bad one.
They have a shelf life too...
.

[PCBONEZ]

Re: Question about 85c caps vs. 105c caps

Well, I'd rather not set mine to spin down at all (to be honest). But I should be more clear as to why I'm asking:

I want to reduce the heat output in the system by spinning down the second and hottest HDD in there (ST3160023A). Doing that has shown amelioration in temperature for the components, judging by the temperature sensors. Usually, you would have to spin it up and down in order to do that, but I tricked Windows XP into keeping it spun down once I spin it down by disabling the drive in device manager after I set the idle timer in HDD Scan (I set it to 30 seconds to give me enough time to do that). Then it just powers off after being spun down rather than ever spinning back up until next I boot up the computer. What I want to know is, is such an abrupt speed change a problem for the hard drive after only a few minutes of spinning up (as it naturally spins up when the system is powered on), as otherwise it would just be spinning (uninterrupted) for a few hours until power down?

I guess it would be more wear, but since I'm more worried about the temperatures of the board and capacitors, I may as well leave it like that (the ST3160023A runs rather warm for a HDD, since I have no extra airflow over the HDDs). I'm only keeping the drive in there because it has an installation of Windows that still has data on it itself.

A hard drive is a whoppin' 15-20 watts.
Just add a fan.
.

[Wester547]

Re: Question about 85c caps vs. 105c caps

Wouldn't one dead capacitor on the motherboard mean a dead motherboard? Or would the problem take longer than that to manifest itself as such? Or are there exceptions?

[PCBONEZ]

Re: Question about 85c caps vs. 105c caps

Wouldn't one dead capacitor on the motherboard mean a dead motherboard? Or would the problem take longer than that to manifest itself as such? Or are there exceptions?

You keep asking for definitive answers to -very- generalized questions.
That is getting annoying particularly when the answers have already been discussed at least once right in this thread.
~ There ain't no magic pill or 'rule' that is -always- true.
~ Just isn't. - Have to look at it case by case.


This question is like asking: "If a wire gets 'damaged' my car won't 'run', right?"
-
Cars have lots of wires and they do different things.
Same with caps on mobos.
And words like 'damaged' and 'dead' can mean numerous different things.
Does 'dead' mean open? short? or out of spec?


To the question.
~~
It can but most of the time it won't.
Depends on what THAT cap does and what 'dead' means.
.
An open cap is like there isn't one there at all.
A shorted cap is like replacing the cap with a wire.
The result is different.
And MOST caps only partially fail which is enough to cause ill effects. - Partial short or partial ground.
.
Lets say it's in the +5v rail.
There are usually several caps in parallel on +5v scattered about the board so if [only] one opens all you'll get is slightly more Ripple in +5v.
The affect will depend on whether or not the added Ripple is enough to be a problem or not on THAT board.
- If that same cap shorts instead of opens you'd have a dead board for sure.
That is connecting +5v straight to ground.
Fair chance the PSU or board traces will go up in smoke with that one.

Most caps fail gradually so there is an unstable period before it's actually 'dead'.
Depending on what's going on that period might be a few hours or years.
.
.
Small lytic caps might be for surge suppression [connect/disconnect external cables], for EMI, for Ripple [at the output of small local regulators], or to do mundane jobs for things like sound.
They don't usually have helpers in parallel so when they're gone they're gone.
One for EMI or suppression that opens isn't likely going do squat as far as the board booting or running.
One for a small regulator for some chip's [or a chipset] voltage might prevent boot, cause BSOD, erratic operation or boot-loops.
.
The bigger caps might be to handle ripple for the rails, for larger local regulators, are used in the VRM (which is actually a complete but simple SMPS all by itself).
They also play a major part in keeping the board running during power fluctuations like mini back-up power supplies that are good for a few milliseconds.
With the exception of those in local regulators these usually have buddies in parallel to help out. That's great if one opens but others in parallel can't fix a short.
.
.

[Wester547]

Re: Question about 85c caps vs. 105c caps

Sorry, I don't mean to try anyone's patience. In reference to your answer, it reassures me, as everything else has in this thread. I'll leave the questions at that. And I understand that there are too many kinds of issues and different kinds of circumstances to give an absolute prediction of what will or won't happen (hardware failures aren't predictable, anyway), I was just contemplating. And I thought capacitors failed gradually, though I suppose it can be either instantaneous or gradual (or a mingling).

[PCBONEZ]

Re: Question about 85c caps vs. 105c caps

I've had high quality caps (OSCON) explode with no warning - but that's REALLY rare.
.
I -have- seen a board not boot at all due to two 22uF caps.
They (being bad) threw off the Vtt voltage to the chipset.
Not common but it happens...
.

[PeteS in CA]

Re: Question about 85c caps vs. 105c caps

I've seen PCBs that were destroyed by the sudden catastrophic failure of both solid tantalum capacitors and large form factor SMT monolythic ceramic capacitors (which are EVIL!).

I wonder if lytics are unique in having a gradual failure mechanism, the drying out of the electrolyte. Thinking out loud ... film X and Y capacitors can take hits and self-heal over time, with the carbon residue forming conduction paths, eventually enough such paths to overheat and destroy the capacitor (though it probably will look to the user like a sudden catastrophic failure).

[severach]

Re: Question about 85c caps vs. 105c caps

Electrolytic mostly fail open. Tantalum and ceramic fail shorted. There are a lot of places that an open is tolerated that a shorted won't be.

[PCBONEZ]

Re: Question about 85c caps vs. 105c caps

Not too many Electrolytic fail dead open or dead short.
It's usually a partial failure.
.

[PeteS in CA]

Re: Question about 85c caps vs. 105c caps

Electrolytic mostly fail open. Tantalum and ceramic fail shorted.

Just an addendum, monolythic ceramic caps tend to fail short (or low resistance); I have seen a few that opened or had high resistance at one of the terminals. Old-style disc ceramics tend to fail open. I have seen a few lytics fail short, after many hours of torture-testing (at ripple currents that once or twice caused the lead wires to open like a fuse).

[Wester547]

Re: Question about 85c caps vs. 105c caps

I hate to bump this thread, but I ran the system at full 3D load again and put my finger on the 9500 Pro's heatsink and it was somewhat scorching (though the RAM chips on the card did not feel quite as hot and they have no cooling) - almost too hot to touch. This is in cold weather. Since the people here are so knowledgeable, are heatsinks supposed to feel so hot (heatsinks that are mounted onto devices, at full load)? None of the other heatsinks on the motherboard feel hot. I know that probably means it's probably transferring lots of heat, along with the fan, which is good. But if the card is overheating, wouldn't it be imprudent to leave it in a system with caps that won't survive hot hardware? I know the card has a fan to remove heat quickly enough that it won't affect the rest of the system so much, but I worry with an excessive temperature from the card in somewhat cold weather. I understand that the fan could be worse for wear at this point, though, and you wouldn't know it because it's a nigh silent fan.

[Wester547]

Re: Question about 85c caps vs. 105c caps

Nevermind... ATI Tool lets me underclock it. ^^; That should help.

[PCBONEZ]

Re: Question about 85c caps vs. 105c caps

A heatsink's job is to 'sink' (carry away) from the chip underneath it.
If the chip underneath it is hot then the heatsink should be hot.
.
If the chip is hot and the heatsink isn't then you need to replace the thermal pad or paste because the heat isn't transferring.
.
If the chip isn't hot then it's not under full load and the heatsink shouldn't be hot either.
.
If you do a bit of web searching you should be able to fine the TDP (Total Design Power) of your video chip.
- Or your motherboard chips or any other chip for that matter.
It's not always easy to find but it should be 'out there' somewhere for most chips.
.
TDP is (effectively) the max heat in watts the chip should be giving off under full load.
If it says 60 watts TDP then at full load that little tiny chip is giving off as much heat as a 60 watt light bulb and the heatsink should probably burn you.
.
Sometimes you can find max case temp for IC chips which is good info too.
Some chips can handle loads of heat without a problem, others not so much.
.
.
This will give you some idea of how much the TDP for video chips varies.
I don't see your chip listed but it (or one close / in the same family) should be somewhere.
http://www.geeks3d.com/20090618/grap...-tdp-database/
.

[Wester547]

Re: Question about 85c caps vs. 105c caps

I agree that the heatsink should be hot... but too hot to touch in cold weather? Doesn't that mean the chip is getting too hot? Underclocking did make a tangible difference though, which is good enough for me. But I also noticed that the CPU and auxiliary/motherboard run 4 degrees cooler (in celsius) when the side panel is off.... would this convenience the capacitors as well, or would more 'natural' airflow be attained by keeping the side panel on? ^^; I know people said in this thread to leave it the way it was, but a 4 degree drop in temperatures...

[PCBONEZ]

Re: Question about 85c caps vs. 105c caps

I agree that the heatsink should be hot... but too hot to touch in cold weather? Doesn't that mean the chip is getting too hot? Underclocking did make a tangible difference though, which is good enough for me. But I also noticed that the CPU and auxiliary/motherboard run 4 degrees cooler (in celsius) when the side panel is off.... would this convenience the capacitors as well, or would more 'natural' airflow be attained by keeping the side panel on? ^^; I know people said in this thread to leave it the way it was, but a 4 degree drop in temperatures...

Fasten a heatsink to a 60 watt bulb and turn it on for a half hour.
Do you think the heatsink will be hot to touch?
Same thing..
.
4 degrees isn't going to matter much unless you are right at some limit.
Open cases get dirty inside. Dust bunnies.
If I wanted to get temp down I'd put a filtered fan in the side panel like I said before. [If that was in this thread...]
.

[Wester547]

Re: Question about 85c caps vs. 105c caps

I think extra fans would help, not arguing that. But, the case is very cluttered as it is with components, and the motherboard is rather small (it only had two slots for the RAM). ^^; And I've cleaned the case very thoroughly - it's dust free. But I'm not sure about the TDP of this card. I can't find the TDP for the R300 anywhere, though I will continue searching. And it isn't just the heatsink that feels hot - the RAM chips on it feel very hot as well (and as aforementioned, they have no cooling). Underclocking the memory will definitely make a difference in thermal output. And yeah, I know, that's why I'm not running it with the side panel off all the time, only in especially hot weather.

[Wester547]

Re: Question about 85c caps vs. 105c caps

Well, given that this is an AGP 4x slot (and the 9500 Pro is an AGP 8x card), I can't imagine the TDP being more than 50w... maybe 41w, even? Or even a tad lower.... I don't think that should produce that much heat.

[Wester547]

Re: Question about 85c caps vs. 105c caps

I don't mean to make too much of a necropost, but I thought I'd give an update whilst asking another question of sorts. ^^;

Firsts of all, the "BFG 450W" PSU in the system ended up being of the GS series which means it was tripe and Huntkey (a rebrand of Huntkey's V-Power "450")... and after 1 year and 8 months of 300-350W service (12/7), it not only died but took the ST3250824A with it (but thankfully only that, which may expound why I was seeing higher temperatures on it before it died). The system would not boot when I tried it a couple days ago - PSU fan spun, LED came on, CPU fan spun, graphics card fan spun, keyboard flashed, DVD-RWs flashed, HDDs spun up (the ST3250824A can still do that much but it will not do anything else other than be recognized and spin up/down), but that was it. So.... I found an old 300W Hipro (HP-P3527F3, only 9 months of 12/7 use) lying around (a 300W FSP300-60BTV was the original PSU that came with the machine, but its filtering capacitors, I believe, started going bad, as stated by others before me in this thread). I swapped PSUs and the system runs fine again, only with the ST3160023A and slightly augmented temperatures (this PSU's fan does not ventilate the case as effectively but oh well).

Also, I noticed PCBONEZ posted this in another thread of talk, so if I may ask:

Nichicon VR [85C @/2000Hr] start going bad after about 4-5 years 24/7 in poorly cooled cases.

Would this be equal to 8-10 years of 12/7 use (or is that too general a question ^^; )?