The Good Capacitors Photo Thread - Page 2

**PCBONEZ** · 12-08-2007, 02:19 AM

I can see how you got where you got then.
I don't consider endurance.

To me the endurance rating isn't a very practical (realistic) number.
First they don't test the capacitors to failure so it's an 'at least this long' rating. [not a max] - It says "We can abuse it xxxx many hours and it will still work properly."
xxxx is CHOSEN by the testers before the test is done and is not determined by the testing. (Which is why they are all in thousands of hours: 1000, 2000, 3000, ..... )
-
It does nothing practical towards telling us how long the cap last in a real world environment.
-
Yes you can use endurance and do the math to find expected life span but that's almost useless because it's so inaccurate.
-
I've forgotten which but one of the major manufactures (good caps brand) gives calculations of life span based on the endurance a "60% level of confidence" (their words.) This is because so many of the inputs to the equation are taken for other equations that give low precision results.
(Many inaccurate variables gives an even less accurate result.)
-
So, even if you do all the math and come up with say 5 years, it doesn't mean the cap will last 5 years. It means it will last somewhere between 3 and 7 years.
[ 5 years +/- 40%.]
-
So lets say we compare a 2000hr [5yr] cap and a 4000hr [10yr] cap.
5yr + 40% = 7yr
10yr - 40% = 6yr
-
In the real world the 2000hr cap may last longer than a 4000hr cap.

.

**gonzo0815** · 12-08-2007, 07:40 AM

If the ambient temp is low, may be not more than 45°c, then i may agree.
In non SMPS or similar low ripple applications may be too.
When higher temps or ultra low esr caps are used, then i certainly would take the endurance in to account.

As we have seen early failures of ultra low esr capacitors even with the good brands ( Rubycon MCZ, UCC KZG, KZE and may be KC8`S failed FM ) i would take it seriously.
Similar is the fact, that even ultra cheap crap capacitors like FuHiyu can last very long, if kept beyond a certain threshold of ambient temperature.
If not, they degrade very fast (<1 year).

At least Rubycon is still referring to Rhenius law in their appnote to calculate Endurance. And this is the way, an engineer or designer should have to go.
In this formula, even the small difference of 1000h @105°c is a significant factor.
So i would simply call it a failure, to put a ultra low esr cap with 2k endurance into a environment, where the guaranteed endurance will not be sufficient for the projected lifetime of the appliance.
The above stated generalization 2000h capacitor =5yr is from my point of view not applicable in demanding application.
Sure, the endurance does not mean, that the capacitor has lost it`s whole function, it depends on the circuit and the margin the designer has left.
Considering SOHO IT appliances, i am not that confident, if there is some.

I agree, that it is probably not that realistic to calculate a lifetime based on Rhenius law for more then five years, as this is certainly not proven for any of the recent series.
And sure, there are some safety margins calculated into the guaranteed endurance. But at least for me it is obviouse, that an Panasonic FC is probably more conservatively rated then a Rubycon MCZ.

There are some ultra high endurance high volt caps available, it is the Panasonic ED series with 12000h.
This capacitors are especially recommended for electronic ballasts, where the cap will be placed in the soket of the lamp.

If endurance would not mater, then i think no manufacturer would pay the hefty price tag they have.
And i have seen a lot of those CFL flickering or going dim due to dried up Capxon or even Rubycon capacitors well b4 the advertised lifetime of the lamp.

**PCBONEZ** · 12-08-2007, 04:24 PM

I think that if there were a way to determine a -realistic- number for estimated life span it would simply be put in the data tables.

I'm not saying Endurance isn't a useful number.
I'm saying most people use it the wrong way because they don't understand where it comes from or what it means.

All Endurance really says is: "you can abuse it 'at least' 'this long' without breaking it".

Unless there is a problem (crap PSU, crap caps present elsewhere on the board, inadequate cooling) in normal use even low Endurance caps will last longer than the useful lifetime of the equipment anyway so for me Endurance is the last (or not even a) consideration when selecting caps.

I'm not intending to drag anyone down here.
I'm just stating what -I- look at when choosing my own caps.
-
Endurance might matter in 2 or 3 years but that's about when I'd be upgrading the system anyway. In the mean time what matters is Ripple and ESR. So that's what I care about.

You pick your caps and I'll pick mine.
Don't worry. Be happy.
Live long and prosper. (or something like that)

.

**gonzo0815** · 12-09-2007, 06:10 AM

No problem, it is a free forum in a free country

I have no problem with this way of capacitor selection. In fact i do it sometimes the same way

.

But i think it should always be clear, how and why we come to such rules of thumbs, as there are people, which don`t replace their hardware that frequently like we tech nuts do it.
And there are up today many other devices, where SMPS are used, which should last a bit longer or are running extraordinary hot (e.g. TFT`s, AUDIO HIFI, network equipment etc.).

**jpdoe** · 09-29-2008, 05:20 PM

when looking at can size to improve ESR, is diameter more important than height? Or is it necesary to calculate volume and compare it instead?

**PCBONEZ** · 09-29-2008, 10:08 PM

You can only compare caps in the same series that way because of the differences in chemistry and materials between different series.

**jpdoe** · 09-30-2008, 04:31 AM

Thanks, PCBONEZ

**Behemot** · 04-22-2010, 02:32 PM

I've acquired these Sanyo's from some MoBo but I did not find a word about this DX series in Sanyo's old materials at all. However they should be original because there were also WG's...

Does somebody have datasheet of these? Can be used in PSU?

**Topcat** · 04-22-2010, 03:30 PM

^
I've never heard of DX series either. WG is mostly all I've dealt with in the Sanyo realm. If they aren't fakes, I don't see why they wouldn't be usable in a PSU secondary......but I tend to think its a bad idea to cannibalize caps from other devices and reuse them. Just get new ones, and never have to worry about it again.

**PCBONEZ** · 04-23-2010, 03:59 AM

I've come across DX before but I never found a data sheet for them.

Sanyo sold their lytics interests to the subsidiary that was manufacturing them and who is now their own company.
The name is SUN Electronics Industries Corp and the caps are now branded SUNCON.

~ To stress
- This is who has been making Sanyo lytics all along.
- Only the name on the side of the caps has changed.

Have to go there for data sheets now.
http://www.sunelec.co.jp
http://www.sunelec.co.jp/eng/catalog/catalog02.html
.

**Behemot** · 04-23-2010, 05:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PCBONEZ

I've come across DX before but I never found a data sheet for them.

Sanyo sold their lytics interests to the subsidiary that was manufacturing them and who is now their own company.
The name is SUN Electronics Industries Corp and the caps are now branded SUNCON.

Yeah I digged this info, too, but on Sunelec's website is no mention about DX either.

I'll probably use them on motherboards around PCI slots etc. it should be fine.

ADD// Are the SUNELEC caps any good?

Maybe I'll try and ask them for the DX directly

**c_hegge** · 04-23-2010, 06:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Topcat

but I tend to think its a bad idea to cannibalize caps from other devices and reuse them. Just get new ones, and never have to worry about it again.

I do that all the time (use 2nd hand caps), but only if they are a good brand and series. (Ruby, Panny, Sanyo, Nichicon excluding 2000-2005 HM/MN, Chemi-con excluding KZG and KZJ)

**Behemot** · 04-23-2010, 08:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by c_hegge

I do that all the time (use 2nd hand caps), but only if they are a good brand and series. (Ruby, Panny, Sanyo, Nichicon excluding 2000-2005 HM/MN, Chemi-con excluding KZG and KZJ)

Exactly

**PCBONEZ** · 04-23-2010, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Behemot

Yeah I digged this info, too, but on Sunelec's website is no mention about DX either.

I'll probably use them on motherboards around PCI slots etc. it should be fine.

ADD// Are the SUNELEC caps any good?

Maybe I'll try and ask them for the DX directly

They are called SUNCON.
They -ARE- SANYO.
I thought I explained that already.....
--
Before
- Sanyo owned Sun Electric
- Sun Electric made the caps and put SANYO on them.
Now
- Sun Electric owns Sun Electric
- Sun Electric makes the caps and puts SUNCON on them.
~~ Same caps - new name.

I also said there is not a data sheet for DX.
The link was so if you needed a data sheet for some other series of 'formerly Sanyo' cap.

Yeah, if you write them they might have a data sheet for DX.
If they do please upload it for other folks.
.

**Behemot** · 04-23-2010, 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PCBONEZ

They are called SUNCON.
They -ARE- SANYO.
I thought I explained that already.....
--
Before
- Sanyo owned Sun Electric
- Sun Electric made the caps and put SANYO on them.
Now
- Sun Electric owns Sun Electric
- Sun Electric makes the caps and puts SUNCON on them.
~~ Same caps - new name.

It does not prove or disprove anything.

Take Seasonic as an example: the company makes lot of PSU's. Some of them are high-end, some of them are cheap craps even both could share the same design. It's just that some company like Arctic Cooling comes and says "we know you have high-quality PSU's, but what can you do for XX dollars?" And Seasonic goes and makes Fusion. Same design, initially somehow super specs, but we know the PSU has worse components and the worst caps and it will have problems after time.

The same for Delta, the same even for Channel Well Technology. Everyone gets what he pays for. Sanyo paid well. But most experiences tell us Sun Elec. will probably just use the sound of the name and make craps.

I asked for real experiences, wheter the caps are good and are able to sustain load at least acording their specs, better much more and for longer time as known high-quality caps do. But I did not heard about it yet. Nothing against you personally, I just think your trust if based on paper rather than experience is not enough. OST's, TEAPO and others usually have better specs on paper, you know

**PCBONEZ** · 04-23-2010, 04:51 PM

Those examples are not the same. - Those examples are OEM situations.
This was not an OEM situation. - One company split into two.
They are made by the same people in the same factory as they have been for several decades and they are STILL a Japanese company, not some Chinese or Thai crap paddlers.
-
I'm not going to explain it again.
If you want to remain blissfully ignorant then go right ahead.
.

**Behemot** · 04-26-2010, 01:14 PM

I am not trying to be ignorant, I'd just like to see somebody saying he has only (or mostly) good experiences under some conditions. I did not read whole Bad Caps forum, bud up to date I haven't seen anybody actually using or at least recommending Sun Electronics caps. I haven't seen a system using them. Even Sanyo caps were not widely spread and only minority people used them (compared to Chemi-Con, Rubycon or Nichicon caps). And even some people who I think have far better knowledge about capacitors probably did not ever hear about Sun Electronics.

So sorry if I am annoying, but even (or maybe due to) I have the luck I was born right after the 40 years of communism here in central Europe, I tend to double-check or tripple check. At least in area which I know at least something about. For that reason I'd like somebody to confirm your statements - yes, those are statements until it's proved that's how you say. In the real world economy I tend to not believe companies are good and care about customers so much because I've usually seen the oposite. So I won't base my potencial buy decision on hope wheter some company continues producing good stuff after they divorced from mother firm (with good reputation) thus they are not under watch and can do whatever they want.

Anway, I've got a reply that the (ME-)DX series is not in produce for long time and (ME-)WX is replacement. It can give us some info but I still asked for the datasheet of DX if they have it somewhere.

**370forlife** · 04-26-2010, 01:43 PM

People don't generally recommend sanyo as they are much harder to get. The reason why people haven't recommended suncon is because most people don't know suncon = sanyo, also sanyo still has thousands of sanyo stock to sell off before you start seeing suncon.

**PCBONEZ** · 04-26-2010, 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Behemot

I am not trying to be ignorant

Yet you are succeeding.
Google is your friend.

[Read the last page:]
http://www.edc.sanyo.com/english/pdf/alm/EC_E.pdf

http://www.altec-ag.ch/ger/News/Lett...etter_0409.pdf

**Behemot** · 06-15-2010, 03:03 PM

Found Panasonic HFG caps, FC seems to be replacement for those. Discontiunation notice could serve as datasheet.

What are old Phillips caps from begining of 90's like? I also found Roederstein caps, as I read here they are part of Vishay now, but are these old ones better than now or total craps too?

12-08-2007, 02:19 AM	#21
PCBONEZ Grumpy Old Fart Join Date: Aug 2005 City & State: Phoenix, AZ My Country: USA Line Voltage: 120V 60Hz I'm a: Professional Tech Posts: 10,630	Re: The Good Capacitors Photo Thread I can see how you got where you got then. I don't consider endurance. To me the endurance rating isn't a very practical (realistic) number. First they don't test the capacitors to failure so it's an 'at least this long' rating. [not a max] - It says "We can abuse it xxxx many hours and it will still work properly." xxxx is CHOSEN by the testers before the test is done and is not determined by the testing. (Which is why they are all in thousands of hours: 1000, 2000, 3000, ..... ) - It does nothing practical towards telling us how long the cap last in a real world environment. - Yes you can use endurance and do the math to find expected life span but that's almost useless because it's so inaccurate. - I've forgotten which but one of the major manufactures (good caps brand) gives calculations of life span based on the endurance a "60% level of confidence" (their words.) This is because so many of the inputs to the equation are taken for other equations that give low precision results. (Many inaccurate variables gives an even less accurate result.) - So, even if you do all the math and come up with say 5 years, it doesn't mean the cap will last 5 years. It means it will last somewhere between 3 and 7 years. [ 5 years +/- 40%.] - So lets say we compare a 2000hr [5yr] cap and a 4000hr [10yr] cap. 5yr + 40% = 7yr 10yr - 40% = 6yr - In the real world the 2000hr cap may last longer than a 4000hr cap. . __________________ Mann-Made Global Warming. - We should be more concerned about the Intellectual Climate. - Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind. - Dr Seuss - You can teach a man to fish and feed him for life, but if he can't handle sushi you must also teach him to cook. -

12-08-2007, 07:40 AM	#22
gonzo0815 Badcaps Veteran Join Date: Feb 2006 City & State: Germany Posts: 1,595	Re: The Good Capacitors Photo Thread If the ambient temp is low, may be not more than 45°c, then i may agree. In non SMPS or similar low ripple applications may be too. When higher temps or ultra low esr caps are used, then i certainly would take the endurance in to account. As we have seen early failures of ultra low esr capacitors even with the good brands ( Rubycon MCZ, UCC KZG, KZE and may be KC8`S failed FM ) i would take it seriously. Similar is the fact, that even ultra cheap crap capacitors like FuHiyu can last very long, if kept beyond a certain threshold of ambient temperature. If not, they degrade very fast (<1 year). At least Rubycon is still referring to Rhenius law in their appnote to calculate Endurance. And this is the way, an engineer or designer should have to go. In this formula, even the small difference of 1000h @105°c is a significant factor. So i would simply call it a failure, to put a ultra low esr cap with 2k endurance into a environment, where the guaranteed endurance will not be sufficient for the projected lifetime of the appliance. The above stated generalization 2000h capacitor =5yr is from my point of view not applicable in demanding application. Sure, the endurance does not mean, that the capacitor has lost it`s whole function, it depends on the circuit and the margin the designer has left. Considering SOHO IT appliances, i am not that confident, if there is some. I agree, that it is probably not that realistic to calculate a lifetime based on Rhenius law for more then five years, as this is certainly not proven for any of the recent series. And sure, there are some safety margins calculated into the guaranteed endurance. But at least for me it is obviouse, that an Panasonic FC is probably more conservatively rated then a Rubycon MCZ. There are some ultra high endurance high volt caps available, it is the Panasonic ED series with 12000h. This capacitors are especially recommended for electronic ballasts, where the cap will be placed in the soket of the lamp. If endurance would not mater, then i think no manufacturer would pay the hefty price tag they have. And i have seen a lot of those CFL flickering or going dim due to dried up Capxon or even Rubycon capacitors well b4 the advertised lifetime of the lamp.

12-08-2007, 04:24 PM	#23
PCBONEZ Grumpy Old Fart Join Date: Aug 2005 City & State: Phoenix, AZ My Country: USA Line Voltage: 120V 60Hz I'm a: Professional Tech Posts: 10,630	Re: The Good Capacitors Photo Thread I think that if there were a way to determine a -realistic- number for estimated life span it would simply be put in the data tables. I'm not saying Endurance isn't a useful number. I'm saying most people use it the wrong way because they don't understand where it comes from or what it means. All Endurance really says is: "you can abuse it 'at least' 'this long' without breaking it". Unless there is a problem (crap PSU, crap caps present elsewhere on the board, inadequate cooling) in normal use even low Endurance caps will last longer than the useful lifetime of the equipment anyway so for me Endurance is the last (or not even a) consideration when selecting caps. I'm not intending to drag anyone down here. I'm just stating what -I- look at when choosing my own caps. - Endurance might matter in 2 or 3 years but that's about when I'd be upgrading the system anyway. In the mean time what matters is Ripple and ESR. So that's what I care about. You pick your caps and I'll pick mine. Don't worry. Be happy. Live long and prosper. (or something like that) .

12-09-2007, 06:10 AM	#24
gonzo0815 Badcaps Veteran Join Date: Feb 2006 City & State: Germany Posts: 1,595	Re: The Good Capacitors Photo Thread No problem, it is a free forum in a free country I have no problem with this way of capacitor selection. In fact i do it sometimes the same way . But i think it should always be clear, how and why we come to such rules of thumbs, as there are people, which don`t replace their hardware that frequently like we tech nuts do it. And there are up today many other devices, where SMPS are used, which should last a bit longer or are running extraordinary hot (e.g. TFT`s, AUDIO HIFI, network equipment etc.).

09-29-2008, 05:20 PM	#25
jpdoe Badcaps Veteran Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 235	Re: The Good Capacitors Photo Thread when looking at can size to improve ESR, is diameter more important than height? Or is it necesary to calculate volume and compare it instead?

09-29-2008, 10:08 PM	#26
PCBONEZ Grumpy Old Fart Join Date: Aug 2005 City & State: Phoenix, AZ My Country: USA Line Voltage: 120V 60Hz I'm a: Professional Tech Posts: 10,630	Re: The Good Capacitors Photo Thread You can only compare caps in the same series that way because of the differences in chemistry and materials between different series.

09-30-2008, 04:31 AM	#27
jpdoe Badcaps Veteran Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 235	Re: The Good Capacitors Photo Thread Thanks, PCBONEZ

04-22-2010, 03:30 PM	#29
Topcat The Boss Stooge Join Date: Oct 2003 City & State: Salem, MO My Country: United States Line Voltage: 240V @ 60Hz I'm a: Professional Tech Posts: 15,691	Re: The Good Capacitors Photo Thread ^ I've never heard of DX series either. WG is mostly all I've dealt with in the Sanyo realm. If they aren't fakes, I don't see why they wouldn't be usable in a PSU secondary......but I tend to think its a bad idea to cannibalize caps from other devices and reuse them. Just get new ones, and never have to worry about it again. __________________ <--- Badcaps.net Founder & Owner Badcaps.net Services: Motherboard Repair Services ---------------------------------------------- Badcaps.net Forum Members Folding Team http://folding.stanford.edu/ Team : 49813 Join in!! Team Stats

04-23-2010, 03:59 AM	#30
PCBONEZ Grumpy Old Fart Join Date: Aug 2005 City & State: Phoenix, AZ My Country: USA Line Voltage: 120V 60Hz I'm a: Professional Tech Posts: 10,630	Re: The Good Capacitors Photo Thread I've come across DX before but I never found a data sheet for them. Sanyo sold their lytics interests to the subsidiary that was manufacturing them and who is now their own company. The name is SUN Electronics Industries Corp and the caps are now branded SUNCON. ~ To stress - This is who has been making Sanyo lytics all along. - Only the name on the side of the caps has changed. Have to go there for data sheets now. http://www.sunelec.co.jp http://www.sunelec.co.jp/eng/catalog/catalog02.html .

04-23-2010, 04:51 PM	#36
PCBONEZ Grumpy Old Fart Join Date: Aug 2005 City & State: Phoenix, AZ My Country: USA Line Voltage: 120V 60Hz I'm a: Professional Tech Posts: 10,630	Re: The Good Capacitors Photo Thread Those examples are not the same. - Those examples are OEM situations. This was not an OEM situation. - One company split into two. They are made by the same people in the same factory as they have been for several decades and they are STILL a Japanese company, not some Chinese or Thai crap paddlers. - I'm not going to explain it again. If you want to remain blissfully ignorant then go right ahead. .

04-26-2010, 01:14 PM	#37
Behemot Badcaps Veteran Join Date: Dec 2009 City & State: Prague, 50°4'52.22"N, 14°23'30.45"E My Country: CZ Line Voltage: 230 V/50 Hz I'm a: Knowledge Seeker Posts: 4,774	Re: The Good Capacitors Photo Thread I am not trying to be ignorant, I'd just like to see somebody saying he has only (or mostly) good experiences under some conditions. I did not read whole Bad Caps forum, bud up to date I haven't seen anybody actually using or at least recommending Sun Electronics caps. I haven't seen a system using them. Even Sanyo caps were not widely spread and only minority people used them (compared to Chemi-Con, Rubycon or Nichicon caps). And even some people who I think have far better knowledge about capacitors probably did not ever hear about Sun Electronics. So sorry if I am annoying, but even (or maybe due to) I have the luck I was born right after the 40 years of communism here in central Europe, I tend to double-check or tripple check. At least in area which I know at least something about. For that reason I'd like somebody to confirm your statements - yes, those are statements until it's proved that's how you say. In the real world economy I tend to not believe companies are good and care about customers so much because I've usually seen the oposite. So I won't base my potencial buy decision on hope wheter some company continues producing good stuff after they divorced from mother firm (with good reputation) thus they are not under watch and can do whatever they want. Anway, I've got a reply that the (ME-)DX series is not in produce for long time and (ME-)WX is replacement. It can give us some info but I still asked for the datasheet of DX if they have it somewhere. __________________ Less jewellery, more gold into electrotech industry! Half of the computer problems is caused by bad contacts Exclusive caps, meters and more! Hardware Insights - power supply reviews and more!

04-26-2010, 01:43 PM	#38
370forlife Large Marge Join Date: Aug 2008 City & State: Kalamazoo, MI My Country: United States Line Voltage: 0-120VAC 60Hz I'm a: Hobbyist Tech Posts: 2,928	Re: The Good Capacitors Photo Thread People don't generally recommend sanyo as they are much harder to get. The reason why people haven't recommended suncon is because most people don't know suncon = sanyo, also sanyo still has thousands of sanyo stock to sell off before you start seeing suncon. __________________

06-15-2010, 03:03 PM	#40
Behemot Badcaps Veteran Join Date: Dec 2009 City & State: Prague, 50°4'52.22"N, 14°23'30.45"E My Country: CZ Line Voltage: 230 V/50 Hz I'm a: Knowledge Seeker Posts: 4,774	Re: The Good Capacitors Photo Thread Found Panasonic HFG caps, FC seems to be replacement for those. Discontiunation notice could serve as datasheet. What are old Phillips caps from begining of 90's like? I also found Roederstein caps, as I read here they are part of Vishay now, but are these old ones better than now or total craps too?

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