New electric panel.

[Spork Schivago]

Hello,

We currently have a 100 amp panel that feeds a 60-amp sub-panel. The idea is to do away with both and replace them with one 200-amp panel.

This is the one I've been eying. What do you guys think?

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Square-D-...00PC/204844633

It's a plug-on neutral one. If I understand this correctly, what this means is when we install our combination arc-fault circuit breakers, we won't have to worry about the pigtail. They'll just plop right in and there'll be a neutral busbar that they snap into. We're planning on using combination arc-fault circuit breakers whenever possible. Currently, our house has 17 circuits. We have a couple breakers wired in tandem. We don't want any tandem breakers wired in on the new panel.

[keeney123]

Re: New electric panel.

Hello,

We currently have a 100 amp panel that feeds a 60-amp sub-panel. The idea is to do away with both and replace them with one 200-amp panel.

This is the one I've been eying. What do you guys think?

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Square-D-...00PC/204844633

It's a plug-on neutral one. If I understand this correctly, what this means is when we install our combination arc-fault circuit breakers, we won't have to worry about the pigtail. They'll just plop right in and there'll be a neutral busbar that they snap into. We're planning on using combination arc-fault circuit breakers whenever possible. Currently, our house has 17 circuits. We have a couple breakers wired in tandem. We don't want any tandem breakers wired in on the new panel.

Here you go read to your hearts content
http://www.schneider-electric.us/en/...rcuit-breakers

[Spork Schivago]

Re: New electric panel.

Keeney123, what's the difference between a circuit breaker and a miniature circuit breaker? I'm looking at the site you linked me too (I was searching it before I clicked your link).

I see stuff like this:

http://www.schneider-electric.us/en/...rcuit-breakers

Is that 480$ for just one 40-amp 2-pole breaker? That's really expensive. On HomeDepot, for the arc-fault / GFCI combo 30-amp, I think it was around 90$. I couldn't find any plug-on type arc-fault / GFCI 2-pole breakers though and I couldn't find anything higher than 30-amp for the dual pole arc-fault / GFCI combo breakers.

Also, what do you think the 10k and 22k AIR thing means? I just found this:

http://www.productinfo.schneider-ele...000056449.xml#

Which shows they don't make a dual-function plug-on neutral 2-pole breaker of any size. They do make a 15-amp and a 20-amp arc-fault with pigtails circuit breaker though, part numbers:

QO215CAFI
QO220CAFI
QO215VHCAFI
QO220VHCAFI

[Spork Schivago]

Re: New electric panel.

Is the Schneider Square D the way to go here? Because they don't make any dual pole combination arc-fault without the pigtails, I was thinking of maybe checking out another brand, like Murray or something. What do you think?

[redwire]

Re: New electric panel.

Ensure that load center has copper busbars. Somehow manufacturers went cheap on home load centers using aluminum.

Almost all of your cost is the circuit breakers. Price them out. You could get discounts on bulk packs, unless you are recycling the old ones?
I would not use aged breakers, Federal Pioneer ones don't trip, even after a fire. old breakers are junk

22,000 amp arc interrupt rating (22K AIR) I believe is the NEC since UL489 updated in 2000.

[Spork Schivago]

Re: New electric panel.

Ensure that load center has copper busbars. Somehow manufacturers went cheap on home load centers using aluminum.

Almost all of your cost is the circuit breakers. Price them out. You could get discounts on bulk packs, unless you are recycling the old ones?
I would not use aged breakers, Federal Pioneer ones don't trip, even after a fire. old breakers are junk

22,000 amp arc interrupt rating (22K AIR) I believe is the NEC since UL489 updated in 2000.

Thank you. We did price stuff out a bit and know the money is in the breakers. I also found out what the air stuff was. Thanks for explaining that. I want to double check the NEC. I found the 10K CAFCI's listed on HomeDepot's website say: Combines CAFCI and GFCI protection in one device for NEC 2014

I read what the interrupt rating is but the numbers don't mean a lot to me. If the fault is to big and the interrupt rating is too low, the breaker could explode or the equipment or person could get hurt. Okay, so it's kinda like a breakdown voltage or something but measured in amps? 22,000 amp or higher would damage the breaker....that's a lot of amperage. Would I ever need anything over 10K in a normal house?

We don't mind spending the extra money and doing it right though. If 22K AIR rated ones could prevent an explosion or death or something, we have no problems forking out the extra cash. But if we're never going to run across a scenario where the breakers ever receive anything over 10K and the NEC says 10K is fine, does it make sense to go for the 22K rated ones? Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions.

[delaware74b]

Re: New electric panel.

Square D Homeline series is aluminum buss, as is Cutler Hammer/Eaton BR series. 10 year warranty for both series.

GE is full copper buss flash tinned with anti-corrosive coating. Lifetime warranty on all breakers except plug-in panel surge protector. I got a great deal at a local supply house for the one I installed in my house.

Square D QO series at Lowes and Home Depot are aluminum buss and still 10 year warranty. So much $$$ for a crappy panel, IMO.

Cutler Hammer/Eaton CH series is copper buss, lifetime warranty, same cost as a QO.....

Siemens is also a good panel if you can get the copper buss. Make sure the panel number ends in 'CU'. Warranty is only 2 years.

Arc fault breakers are currently required for all new 120- volt circuits in a home under the 2014 NEC. Arc faults are not required for a panel replacement unless you move the existing circuit more than 6 feet. If you add to an existing circuit, arc fault required.

Some people don't like GE gear but I don't have a problem with it.

AIC = Amps Interrupt Capacity. It's the maximum amperage a breaker can handle and trip under a short-circuit condition. Be aware the breaker may self-destruct under that condition. I have seen breakers damaged from a customer trying to reset it under a bolted fault condition but not a catastrophic failure.

[Spork Schivago]

Re: New electric panel.

These are the breakers we were looking at:

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Square-D-...PDFC/204844649

They're combination arc-fault and GFCI, just not combination arc-fault. They're only 10K AIR though.

[Spork Schivago]

Re: New electric panel.

Square D Homeline series is aluminum buss, as is Cutler Hammer/Eaton BR series. 10 year warranty for both series.

GE is full copper buss flash tinned with anti-corrosive coating. Lifetime warranty on all breakers except plug-in panel surge protector. I got a great deal at a local supply house for the one I installed in my house.

Square D QO series at Lowes and Home Depot are aluminum buss and still 10 year warranty. So much $$$ for a crappy panel, IMO.

Cutler Hammer/Eaton CH series is copper buss, lifetime warranty, same cost as a QO.....

Siemens is also a good panel if you can get the copper buss. Make sure the panel number ends in 'CU'. Warranty is only 2 years.

Arc fault breakers are currently required for all new 120- volt circuits in a home under the 2014 NEC. Arc faults are not required for a panel replacement unless you move the existing circuit more than 6 feet. If you add to an existing circuit, arc fault required.

Some people don't like GE gear but I don't have a problem with it.

AIC = Amps Interrupt Capacity. It's the maximum amperage a breaker can handle and trip under a short-circuit condition. Be aware the breaker may self-destruct under that condition. I have seen breakers damaged from a customer trying to reset it under a bolted fault condition but not a catastrophic failure.

Do they have the plug-on neutral breakers for the GE or the Cutler Hammer / Eaton CH series though or are we going to have to wire the pigtail to the bussbar? We're spending a lot of cash and I want it to look real nice but be done proper like. I don't want to cut any corners. It's the first time I've installed a panel before. I didn't want the pigtails but if I can't get the plug-on neutral and the copper buss, we might just have to go for the copper buss. If we go with the aluminum though, we'd just have t tighten the connections every year or so, right?

Even if arc-fault aren't required, we wanted to use the combination arc-fault ones. I see they also make combination arc-fault / GFCI breakers. They might be what we'd go for. Now that we have a daughter, we don't mind spending the extra money to be a little bit safer, you know?

[delaware74b]

Re: New electric panel.

SQ-D Homeline series has the plug-on bus (same as QO). The Homeline breakers actually have the same internals as the QO but in a more popular (cheaper) 1" width. The QO are 3/4" wide as are the Cutler Hammer CH series. However, CH/CH and SQ-D QO are not interchangeable.
On a technical note, some brands will physically fit in other brand panels (CH/BR in a GE or Homeline) but will void the warranty and is a violation of code.

At one time, SQ-D and CH had a series where they were compatible and were listed as such. I think it was the XO series from the 50's/60's. I have seen 1 panel in 12 years and was to be replaced.

10K AIR is okay in residential branch circuit breakers. The main breaker is probably 22K. I know CH had upgraded their main breakers to equal GE.

[delaware74b]

Re: New electric panel.

Currently, SQ-D is the only manufacturer with the plug on bus. There is a down side to the arc fault breakers besides the cost. They are prone to nuisance trips. Items that cause false tripping are: vacuum cleaners (or any other brushed motor), switch-mode power supplies, fluorescent ballasts, dimmers, and some LED lamps.
Brushed motors are the worst because they generate the exact signature of noise the breaker is monitoring the wiring. It is an ongoing problem and breaker manufacturers have improved breakers to some extent.

[Spork Schivago]

Re: New electric panel.

Currently, SQ-D is the only manufacturer with the plug on bus. There is a down side to the arc fault breakers besides the cost. They are prone to nuisance trips. Items that cause false tripping are: vacuum cleaners (or any other brushed motor), switch-mode power supplies, fluorescent ballasts, dimmers, and some LED lamps.
Brushed motors are the worst because they generate the exact signature of noise the breaker is monitoring the wiring. It is an ongoing problem and breaker manufacturers have improved breakers to some extent.

Thank you. My neighbor seems to know a bunch about electricity and said arc-fault is now required here by code. Does that sound right? I've read about some of the issues with the false trips. I read certain lights could set them off. But I thought if we had that problem, we'd just replace that one breaker with a non-arc fault type. I see they make some breakers specifically for things like motors, halogen bulbs, etc.

Now I'm looking at the GE breaker:
http://www.homedepot.com/p/GE-PowerM...CCUP/202307120

I guess it's down to what we really want....do we really want the no-pigtails or do we really want the copper bussbar? Could you help me out and give me some suggestions as to why we might go towards the copper bussbar instead of the no-pigtails? Thanks.

[keeney123]

Re: New electric panel.

Keeney123, what's the difference between a circuit breaker and a miniature circuit breaker? I'm looking at the site you linked me too (I was searching it before I clicked your link).

I see stuff like this:

http://www.schneider-electric.us/en/...rcuit-breakers

Is that 480$ for just one 40-amp 2-pole breaker? That's really expensive. On HomeDepot, for the arc-fault / GFCI combo 30-amp, I think it was around 90$. I couldn't find any plug-on type arc-fault / GFCI 2-pole breakers though and I couldn't find anything higher than 30-amp for the dual pole arc-fault / GFCI combo breakers.

Also, what do you think the 10k and 22k AIR thing means? I just found this:

http://www.productinfo.schneider-ele...000056449.xml#

Which shows they don't make a dual-function plug-on neutral 2-pole breaker of any size. They do make a 15-amp and a 20-amp arc-fault with pigtails circuit breaker though, part numbers:

QO215CAFI
QO220CAFI
QO215VHCAFI
QO220VHCAFI

I think you will find that info here http://www.schneider-electric.us/en/...nt/0600DB0201/

I would call up Graybar tell them what your doing and see if they can set you up with a good price.

[Spork Schivago]

Re: New electric panel.

I think you will find that info here http://www.schneider-electric.us/en/...nt/0600DB0201/

I would call up Graybar tell them what your doing and see if they can set you up with a good price.

That's perfect! It definitely beats trying to google every term I come across! Thank you.

I'll look into Graybar as well. I'm waiting on Schneider Electric to get back to me. I asked them a question or two and want to see what they say first.

I wonder if I could install one of those BCMs (circuit breaker communications module). From the PDF you linked, if I understand it correctly, it'll hook the circuit breakers up to a network. I'm looking at them as kinda like a managed switch, where you can turn ports on and off, configure their speed, make them full duplex / half duplex, whatever.

It'd be cool if I could monitor the breakers, see which ones are active, which ones have tripped, how much amperage is being drawn, etc. For a fairly big two story house, we only have 17 circuits. To me, that just seemed a little small. Our old house, being single story, had a 40 space panel. All spaces were populated but a few breakers weren't being used. As far as I can tell, every wall in every room has at least one outlet on it. Excluding the basement and the attic, there's 9 rooms total. But there's also outlets in the attic, in the basement and in the hallway upstairs. Just about every room (except for the bathrooms and the kitchen) have ceiling fans. Every breaker is 20-amp, minus the one 60-amp.

[keeney123]

Re: New electric panel.

I do not think it was I who suggested about the panel sensing circuit. I would however contact these people before I made any decision on what to buy. http://ubicomplab.cs.washington.edu/

[Spork Schivago]

Re: New electric panel.

I do not think it was I who suggested about the panel sensing circuit. I would however contact these people before I made any decision on what to buy. http://ubicomplab.cs.washington.edu/

Nah, I don't think anyone suggested anything about the panel sensing circuit. I just saw the definition in that PDF you linked me to. Before then, I didn't realize anything like that existed. Now I know!

[Spork Schivago]

Re: New electric panel.

...Square D QO series at Lowes and Home Depot are aluminum buss and still 10 year warranty. So much $$$ for a crappy panel, IMO...

Schneider Electric has answered my e-mail. They say:

...all of our QO load centers have a copper bus.

Are you sure about the Lowes and Home Depot Square D QO series having an aluminum buss? The company seems to think all of their QO series have a copper buss.

Thanks.

[Mad_Professor]

Re: New electric panel.

Schneider Electric has answered my e-mail. They say:

...all of our QO load centers have a copper bus.

Are you sure about the Lowes and Home Depot Square D QO series having an aluminum buss? The company seems to think all of their QO series have a copper buss.

Thanks.

I've got the QO 12 circuit 6 slot panel for my shop, I had the same thought, it's definitely copper with tin finish.

[redwire]

Re: New electric panel.

It's a mega family of QO Load Centers and a bit confusing:
"Aluminum bus construction on fixed mains panels"
"Shielded one-piece plated copper bus construction on convertible mains panels"

Catalog Number-> Special Construction -CU "Copper Bussing" {option}

"Model # QO142M200PC Convertible Mains – Factory-Installed Main Circuit Breaker
QOM2 Main Frame Size – Convertible to Main Lugs or Lower Amperage Main Circuit Breaker – Copper Bus"

So it looks like a copper bus model. Confusing they have aluminum bus and optional copper bus in the same product family.

The Plug-on Neutral looks like a time saver but does it take that long to cut and strip a neutral connection? You have to cut and strip the hots. I don't see much of an advantage there, but I do like to wire things up...

[Spork Schivago]

Re: New electric panel.

It's a mega family of QO Load Centers and a bit confusing:
"Aluminum bus construction on fixed mains panels"
"Shielded one-piece plated copper bus construction on convertible mains panels"

Catalog Number-> Special Construction -CU "Copper Bussing" {option}

"Model # QO142M200PC Convertible Mains – Factory-Installed Main Circuit Breaker
QOM2 Main Frame Size – Convertible to Main Lugs or Lower Amperage Main Circuit Breaker – Copper Bus"

So it looks like a copper bus model. Confusing they have aluminum bus and optional copper bus in the same product family.

The Plug-on Neutral looks like a time saver but does it take that long to cut and strip a neutral connection? You have to cut and strip the hots. I don't see much of an advantage there, but I do like to wire things up...

To me, the plug-on neutral isn't so much about saving time, I just think it looks nicer not having all the pigtails. I've read more about the CAFI breakers and I'm a bit worried though. A guy bought some Square D ones and said they trip all the time, just not motors and lights, but anything, a couple times a week. He says he contacted the company and they said it's a known issue and they're working on fixing it. They said if someone's working on the lines in the area, they can trip, yadda yadda yadda. I wonder if that's fixed now or if that's still an issue.

I can understand maybe a halogen light or something tripping a breaker, but if our vacuum cleaner or my rework station or our PCs are going to trip them, that's going to be an issue. I need to see if arc fault are really required in this area or not. If they're not, maybe I'll just go for the GFCI breakers.