Dimension 8400 with bad HN(M)'s

[Topcat]

Re: Dimension 8400 with bad HN(M)'s

Ho 422

You sure thats not H0422? Meaning the cap was manufactured the 22nd week of 2004. Replace it.

[yyonline]

Re: Dimension 8400 with bad HN(M)'s

It is a Nichicon 2200uf 6.3v and it says 22 Ho 422 on the side

I've fixed a 3 Dimension 8400s. I usually replace that one with Rubycon MCZ:
https://www.badcaps.net/store/produc...products_id=32

I once used Samxon GC as I ordered a bunch of them awhile ago, and didn't have any MCZ. Owner didn't want to wait the few days it would have taken to order them:
https://www.badcaps.net/store/produc...products_id=62

I'd also replace any of the 1000uF HN capacitors. They were all bad on the three I worked on. There are 5 of them, if my photographic memory is still working at this hour. 4 by the memory slots, one by the PCI Express slot.
https://www.badcaps.net/store/produc...products_id=44

Also look out for any KZJ capacitors. I've seen those fail often, and I know they're in some of the 8400s.

[iliiinieis]

Re: Dimension 8400 with bad HN(M)'s

I hate to revive and old topic but I have an 8400 of a customers now with the bad caps. I removed all that were bulging. I am buying them through this site and want to know of these will work:

5 x 1000 uf 10v replacing with these:
https://www.badcaps.net/store/produc...products_id=47

1 x 2200 uf 10v replacing with this:
https://www.badcaps.net/store/produc...products_id=32

1 x 2200 uf 6.3v replacing with this:
https://www.badcaps.net/store/produc...products_id=32

Are there any others I should be aware of? The fan on this thing sounded like a jet plane. Glad I bookmarked this site.

[PCBONEZ]

Re: Dimension 8400 with bad HN(M)'s

If all the ones you are replacing are HM Series then those are fine.
If they are something else it's hard to say without knowing what they are.
If any are HN Series those should get MCZ.

The board is made for Dell by Intel [or by Foxconn for Intel, for Dell.]
Sometimes they [Intel] uses 85C rated caps for the small 4 & 5 mm caps and those will go bad after a while. - That's one possible cause of a run-away fan.
Small caps CAN cause more serious problems because they are used in things like reference voltages for various chips.

If you don't have any 85C caps them replacing all suspect caps that are 6mm and larger should get it right again.
- All HM and HN with bad date codes are suspect.
- If you have Chemicon KZG those are suspect too.

Also check the PSU for bad caps while you have it out.
.

[c_hegge]

Re: Dimension 8400 with bad HN(M)'s

Those will be fine. Just make sure you replace all nichicon HN and MH caps, busted or not.

[iliiinieis]

Re: Dimension 8400 with bad HN(M)'s

All the smaller cap tops are in tact and not raised at all. These I have listed are all Nichicon. More details below:

5 x 1000 uf 10v HN(M)

1 x 2200 uf 10v HM(M)

1 x 2200 uf 6.3v HN(M)

I had a couple of GX 280's awhile back with this crappy brand on and had to replace all them too. I am ordering 2 x 1800 uf 6.3 MCZ to finish a leftover board I had that Dell let me keep. So, if these above will work I will be ordering tonight. Thanks.

As for the 85C caps, it has a bunch of them. The tops are not raised at all. Should I be concerned? They look brand new but I know that not always a definitive sign. They are all Nichicon brand. I guess the 85C is the temp rating?

This board is out of a full ATX case with lots of fans so it may have bought them time with these 85C caps. Its got 52 of them on this board.

[PCBONEZ]

Re: Dimension 8400 with bad HN(M)'s

5 x 1000 uf 10v HN(M)

1 x 2200 uf 10v HM(M)

1 x 2200 uf 6.3v HN(M)

HN are a higher grade [lower ESR and higher Ripple] than HM or MBZ.
1000uf 10v HN(M) <- MCZ [6.3v or 10v okay]
2200uf 10v HM(M) <- MBZ or MCZ [6.3v or 10v okay]
2200uf 6.3v HN(M) <- MCZ [6.3v or 10v okay]

As for the 85C caps, it has a bunch of them. The tops are not raised at all. Should I be concerned? They look brand new but I know that not always a definitive sign. They are all Nichicon brand. I guess the 85C is the temp rating?

Yes 85C is the temp rating. Intel usually uses VR Series on mobos when they go to 85C.
It's not like 'usual' but it's not unusual for VR to start going bad at about 5 years old.
Heat in and hours on the system have a lot to do with it.
When they bloat they don't bloat much. It's hard to see on small caps.
I posted some pics of bloated VR on Intel boards here:
https://www.badcaps.net/forum/showpo...0&postcount=42
Yes good cooling helps them last longer.

As to: "Should I be concerned?"
You asked if there was "anything else to be aware of". - Now you're aware.
-
If they look as good as you say then you are probably okay leaving them but keep an eye on them.
Check them every time you open it up for something and anytime the system seems to be misbehaving.
.

[yyonline]

Re: Dimension 8400 with bad HN(M)'s

On one of the 8400s I recapped, it kept having blue screen errors referencing iastor.sys. Thinking I messed up something on the recap, I re-recapped it, but same thing. I replaced all the little caps, figuring one of them had to be bad and was interfering with the storage controller. No difference. I eventually tracked down this:

http://support.dell.com/support/topi...&doclang=en&cs

Apparently, there's a bug in the storage drivers that shipped with the Dimension 8400. Given how rarely the non-technical computer user updates drivers, it's very possible this old driver could still be installed.

So, that's something to keep in mind if you're testing out the 8400 and run into disk related stability issues. The error seemed to happen quite frequently during stress testing in Windows, but very rarely during normal use.

[bgavin]

Re: Dimension 8400 with bad HN(M)'s

On one of the 8400s I recapped, it kept having blue screen errors referencing iastor.sys.

This is also a symptom of memory problems.

www.memtest.org

Download the v4.10 iso image and burn to CD.
Boot the CD and let it run over night.
Any red errors indicates failing memory, and BSOD.

I have (yet another) Corsair Dominator XMS2-8500 set on the bench for this problem. It is nice to know that I have 100% failure with this memory product, on over a dozen installations now. CM2X2048-8500C5D. Pure shit. Every bit as unreliable as the GX270 bad caps.

[PCBONEZ]

Re: Dimension 8400 with bad HN(M)'s

You'll have better luck with RAM if you avoid the high performance crap and stick to main-stream RAM from a reliable brand.

High performance RAM is at the edge of stability.
That's why it's called high performance.
.

[iliiinieis]

Re: Dimension 8400 with bad HN(M)'s

Ok guys, I talked to the owner of this 8400 and told them what the problem is. They want me to replace all the known bad caps. This thing is full of these Nichicon caps, is there a kit that will get me all I need to replace all the caps or do I need to write them down myself?

If I write them down will you guys tell me what to replace them with? I don't want to buy the wrong caps.

[iliiinieis]

Re: Dimension 8400 with bad HN(M)'s

Ok guys, here is what I need. These are the bigger ones that have any kind of bulge at all. The rest are perfectly flat with no buldge at all. What can I replace these with? Also, do you need to know the measurements of these?

220uf 6.3v VP(M)

470uf 16v VR(M)

470uf 10v VR(M)

220uf 6.3 HC(M)

1000uf 10v HN(M)

2200uf 10v HM(M)

2200uf 6.3v HN(M)

[PCBONEZ]

Re: Dimension 8400 with bad HN(M)'s

I just saw this but it's past my nappy time.
I'll address it in a few hours.

What country are you in?

.

[PCBONEZ]

Re: Dimension 8400 with bad HN(M)'s

VP - 220uf 6.3v - 8x11.5mm - 215 mA - GP - BI-POLAR !!
Bi-polar [aka: non-polar] are unusual in full size Radial caps on a motherboard.
There is no positive and negative on these. Polarity can be either way.
Generally used for passing signals and not as filters.

For VR just use a 105˚C with at least that much Ripple [mA]

VR - 470uf 16v - 8x11.5mm - 440 mA - GP
.... LXZ, FC, PW

VR - 470uf 10v - 6.3x11mm - 350 mA - GP
.... LXZ [6.3v - 6.3x15mm] best due to can size issues.

HC - 220uf 6.3v - 6.3x11mm - 640 mA - 0.077 Ω
I can't find one for this in a 6.3mm. Will an 8mm fit?

HM - 2200uf 10v - 10x25mm - 2800 mA - 0.012 Ω
.... MBZ, WG, FJ, FL, or HM with good date codes

HN - 1000uf 10v -
- 8x20mm - 2220 mA - 0.012 Ω
- 10x12.5mm - 1760 mA - 0.018 Ω
- 10x16mm - 2280 mA - 0.011 Ω
HN - 2200uf 6.3v -
- 10x16mm - 2280 mA - 0.011 Ω
- 10x20mm - 2900 mA - 0.010 Ω
.... MCZ or HN with good date codes.

~~~
To compare Grades look at same dimentions like this
HN - 10x16mm - 2280 mA - 0.011 Ω
HM - 10x16mm - 2000 mA - 0.019 Ω
HC - 10x16mm - 1650 mA - 0.024 Ω
VR - 10x16mm - 590 mA - GP
~~~
Note: a 10x25mm in a lower Grade might have better specs than a 10x16mm in a higher Grade.
.

[iliiinieis]

Re: Dimension 8400 with bad HN(M)'s

I appreciate all your effort and information. I have one problem though. I can solder and I have done several GX series dells for some friends as well as 3 of my own and they are all still running with no problem. I have always used cap "kits" to replace the ones I took off. Unfortunately, none of what you said makes any sense to me. I am looking more for a link to a cap on this forums store to a good substitution for these caps I have listed. I hope that makes sense.

As for your question on the size; 8MM will certainly fit.

[PCBONEZ]

Re: Dimension 8400 with bad HN(M)'s

mA = milliamps.
That's the unit used in data sheets to rate caps for Ripple Current.
It is the maximum Ripple Current the cap can handle without over heating.
It is basically the same as the current rating for wire.
If you exceed the rating it will overheat internally and damage the cap.
[Just as if you exceed the rating on wire it will overheat and melt.]

Ω = the ESR units [aka Impedance in some data sheets]
It is the caps 'resistance' to Ripple.
Since part of the cap's 'job' is to pass Ripple through it the resistance should be low.
If you use a cap with higher ESR than original you will leave more Ripple in the power rails on the board and that can make the system unstable.

I just gave you the Ripple and ESR ratings for the original caps and listed series where you are likely to find good replacements.

I answered kind'a quick because I'm needed elsewhere.
If you are still confused please ask away!
.

.

[PCBONEZ]

Re: Dimension 8400 with bad HN(M)'s

Here:
https://www.badcaps.net/forum/showpo...30&postcount=7

I did that the other day. Should answer most of your questions.
.

[iliiinieis]

Re: Dimension 8400 with bad HN(M)'s

Ok, this is what I have chosen to replace my bad caps with. Any further advice before I order?

220uf 6.3v VP(M) change too --> Rubycon ZLH 16v 220uF 6.3X11mm

470uf 16v VR(M) change too --> Rubycon MCZ 470uF 16v 8mm

470uf 10v VR(M) change too --> Rubycon MCZ 470uF 16v 8mm

220uf 6.3 HC(M) change too --> Rubycon ZLH 16v 220uF 6.3X11mm

1000uf 10v HN(M) change too --> Rubycon MCZ 10v 1000uF 8X16mm

2200uf 10v HM(M) change too --> Nichicon HN 10v 2200uF 10X25mm

2200uf 6.3v HN(M) change too --> Rubycon MCZ 2200uF 6.3v 10mm

[yyonline]

Re: Dimension 8400 with bad HN(M)'s

Ok, this is what I have chosen to replace my bad caps with. Any further advice before I order?

220uf 6.3v VP(M) change too --> Rubycon ZLH 16v 220uF 6.3X11mm

VP are bipolar. ZLH are not. Therefore, ZLH won't work. You need to find a bipolar cap for replacment. If I recall correctly, these caps are part of the audio circuitry. Therefore, low stress, and fairly unlikely to fail. I wouldn't worry too much about changing these ones.

470uf 16v VR(M) change too --> Rubycon MCZ 470uF 16v 8mm

470uf 10v VR(M) change too --> Rubycon MCZ 470uF 16v 8mm

That's fine if there are no size issues. VR are often smaller than MCZ.

220uf 6.3 HC(M) change too --> Rubycon ZLH 16v 220uF 6.3X11mm

ZLH aren't adequate replacements for HC.

HC specs for 6.3V 220uF:
ESR: 0.077 ohms
Ripple: 640 mA

ZLH specs for 16v 220uF:
ESR: 0.094 ohms
Ripple: 540 mA

For a replacement, you want the same or lower ESR, and the same or higher ripple. As you can see, ZLH is not adequate. This is a hard cap to find a replacement for in that size. That said, I don't know of any reliability issues with HC, so I'd just leave it unless there are issues with that cap.

1000uf 10v HN(M) change too --> Rubycon MCZ 10v 1000uF 8X16mm

MCZ is right. However, you definitely want 10x12.5mm here. I'm sure of that, as I've recapped a bunch of 8400s and these are always blown.

2200uf 10v HM(M) change too --> Nichicon HN 10v 2200uF 10X25mm

That's fine, but make sure the replacement HN are 2006 or newer, since tha's when they fixed the defect that caused them to fail. MCZ is also a good replacement for this one.

2200uf 6.3v HN(M) change too --> Rubycon MCZ 2200uF 6.3v 10mm

No issues here. You could use 10v 2200uF HN as well as replacements, if you wanted to keep the different types of caps you need to order down.

[iliiinieis]

Re: Dimension 8400 with bad HN(M)'s

Ok, got an update. I found a guy online who had the exact same caps I took off only newer versions. I believe you guys call it "good dates". I ordered exactly what I took off the board. Same series and all except one.

One change I did make is one of the 6.3V was upgraded to a 10v. It was really swollen and the 10v had a higher mA rating. The caps I took off have the bad pre-2006 codes on them. I will check the new ones when they come in. I doubled my order since the owner told me they have a 2nd identical machine that is doing the same thing now. I will post here when I am finished.

Also, I did ditch the 220uf 6.3v VP. If I need them, I know where I can get them.

Thanks for all your help. I learned alot about caps today.