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Old 11-30-2019, 04:16 PM   #221
Dannyx
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Default Re: Soldering station thoughts and guidelines

Shouldn't I also look at the voltage/power the thing uses ? I'd get a weller handle indeed....way more expensive upfront, but it would at least take the guessing out of the equation.

This would also mean I could hack one into my KSGER T12 station thingy ?

I tend to go where the tips are - expensive tools have more tips to choose from, especially small ones. JBC is out of the question....crazy prices !
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Old 11-30-2019, 10:51 PM   #222
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Default Re: Soldering station thoughts and guidelines

no, you cant use a T12 station for anything else, T12 has the thermocouple in series with the element.
JBC is similar but not 100%,
every other iron has the sensor and element seperatly wired.
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Old 12-01-2019, 04:15 AM   #223
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Default Re: Soldering station thoughts and guidelines

Sensor in series with the element ? I find that....weird. I wonder how it works that way. It makes most sense to have them separate !
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Old 12-01-2019, 06:51 AM   #224
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Default Re: Soldering station thoughts and guidelines

it works by using pwm drive and sampling the sensor between the pulses!

the reason is simple - it makes constructing the tip simple and cheap - the themocouple junction is the joint between the element and the return wire.
this also gets the sensor right up into the tip.
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Old 12-01-2019, 11:19 AM   #225
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Default Re: Soldering station thoughts and guidelines

Interesting. Would've never thought of that...although if I think about it now, the T12 tips only have two ring contacts at the bottom, so I should've wondered how it sampled the temperature.
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Old 12-01-2019, 12:42 PM   #226
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Default Re: Soldering station thoughts and guidelines

It was Hakko's idea, T12 came from the patent, now expired: US 6087631
It's just a spot weld with a different metal.
You can put several amps through a thermocouple and it doesn't care.
Last pic is JBC cheap knock off I think- it uses two wires for the thermocouple plus two for the heater.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg t12_tip1.jpg (43.2 KB, 10 views)
File Type: jpg t12_tip2.jpg (32.9 KB, 9 views)
File Type: jpg t12_tip3.jpg (35.1 KB, 9 views)
File Type: jpg t12_tip4.jpg (15.4 KB, 8 views)
File Type: jpg really cheap T12.jpg (109.6 KB, 9 views)

Last edited by redwire; 12-01-2019 at 12:43 PM..
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Old 12-01-2019, 12:46 PM   #227
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Default Re: Soldering station thoughts and guidelines

I wonder if a Weller handle works in the same way. That is, two separate wires instead of a combined probe-heater like the T12. The Gordak probably uses this "split" system as well....would have to take it apart to map the pins and whatnot...

Last edited by Dannyx; 12-01-2019 at 12:52 PM..
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Old 12-04-2019, 11:51 AM   #228
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Default Re: Soldering station thoughts and guidelines

What kind of tips would you chaps recommend for microsoldering ? Even if they're brand-specific like the Hakko MicroPencil which Louis uses...just a discussion.
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Old 12-04-2019, 03:34 PM   #229
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Default Re: Soldering station thoughts and guidelines

depends - i have a small knife and a pointy tip.
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Old 12-05-2019, 03:18 AM   #230
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Default Re: Soldering station thoughts and guidelines

When I was just getting started, I used to think microsoldering can be done exclusively with very fine pointy tips, but as time went by I discovered, both from others and from practical experience, that such conical tips are the LEAST favourite of techs and it only gives you the false impression that the tip actually stays hot long enough to do anything. Sure, I've always used budget tools, so perhaps the quality of the tip and the iron makes the difference here, but I found the tip cools down as soon as you touch it to anything, to the point where it actually sticks to the damn component ! It also burns and turns black very easily, so this annoyed me just enough to try something different.

I then tried a bent conical tip and it seemed to go better for everyday jobs (not microsoldering, since I don't have a microscope anyway), so I stuck with this kind until I wore it down to the damn nub ! I then tried a large "hoof" tip (which I think is actually called a "bevel" tip, but I call it a "hoof" or "cameltoe" LOL ) and the thermal mass was even better, allowing me to bulldoze through even the oldest solder, sometimes even without pre-tinning ! This is what I keep on my station ATM.

Then I got myself the smallest kinfe tip I could find on Ali and it's....decent. I wouldn't dare go under a microscope with it, since it's STILL fairly large IMO, that's why I'm asking what others are doing their microsoldering with...

All these are the "900M" sleeve-type which fit both on my Bakku and my Gordak....not particularly high end, but they paid for themselves (at least the Bakku over at my old shop, since this Gordak is not seeing any use at all, since I'm not getting to do anything around here, but that's another story, so there's that.....>_>)

Now on my T12 station I got myself the finest conical bent tip I could find, the JL-02 (I think), a stubbier version of this and also a knife tip. This last one seems to be finer than the one on the Gordak/Bakku, so this one I'd actually dare go micro with.....
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Old 12-06-2019, 09:53 AM   #231
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Default Re: Soldering station thoughts and guidelines

I agree about conical tips not being a lot of use.. I'm currently using a chisel tip for microsoldering. Its about 3mm wide, I would have to measure it to be sure.

I found that a larger tip has much better thermal transfer like you say, and also it is much easier to unsolder and resolder SMD capacitors and resistors if your iron tip is wide enough to heat both ends at once. I don't worry about solder bridges while actually soldering, I use plenty of flux while soldering and solder braid to clean up afterwards and find that works well.

This is with a fairly basic 60W Maplin ZD-916 solder station which is what I currently have

http://prowest.ws/payalnaya_stantsiy...m#.Xep2t87gqUk

I'm about to order a Pace ADS200 with a few tips including a very fine conical, a 3mm chisel, a 3.x mm hoof and a 6.x mm knife. I'm looking forward to playing around with the hoof and the knife as I haven't used those types before. I wanted to try a fine conical tip with the Pace to see if the 120W heater makes it more useful.

I'm basically doing a kinda 'drag soldering' technique with the ZD916 and chisel tip at the moment and using an 8 diopter bench magnifier which gives me 3x magnification. I'm using this to solder QFPs and discrete FETs etc. I'm finding it quite successful so far but realise it's limits too when I try to work on things like desktop motherboards.

I do have an Andonstar 302 microscope and I find that a great tool for inspection and absolutely useless for soldering. Or rather I should qualify that by saying I am absolutely useless at soldering under it - I have a big problem with looking in a different direction to the one ion which my hands are pointing and also I can't deal with the loss of distance perception.

I've now ordered this microscope package from Aliexpress and it's now kicking around on the island somewhere, according to UPS tracking, so I guess it will be here early next week.

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/3292...27424c4duxSxRS

This will be the first time I've tried using a binocular microscope for micro-soldering. I am yet to find out if it will be intuitive or involve another learning curve. I do hope it's better than the Andonstar 302 turned out to be.

Rich

Last edited by dicky96; 12-06-2019 at 09:55 AM..
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Old 12-06-2019, 01:39 PM   #232
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Default Re: Soldering station thoughts and guidelines

Does that Maplin station use the 900M tips like mine ?

I too was thinking of taking the leap by making the financial effort to get a scope, even without the camera, since I don't care about recording or sending it off to an external monitor, so I can possibly find something a lot cheaper than what you linked to - perhaps even the same unit overall just without the trinocular port...maybe. STILL, I could not bring myself to actually do it, knowing it wouldn't pay for itself and other than the novelty of playing with it and training at home, it would see very little, if any use....I'm certainly not donating it to my shop in hopes it actually brings me jobs and money, not with the state that this joint is in, which lacks far more basic stuff than a scope (such as an universal laptop power brick and a complete set of DC jacks ! !) I would've kindly brought it into my former shop, which to this day feels like it was heaven on earth, but these guys just don't deserve such luxuries....no way !

Back to the top: I think I too may have trouble adapting to working under strong magnification, since even under a magnifying glass I struggle with depth perception and positioning my hands relative to the board and everything on it. I can imagine it gets worse the higher the magnification. Sure, it takes practice, practice and more practice, but I fear the learning curve is going to be steep....VERY steep ! That is IF I ever get the chance to work under a scope, since I've never done it - the only thing that came remotely close is a super strong magnifier visor I have. Trouble is, on the highest zoom, you have to hold the thing you're working on so close up to your face that it blocks out all light and makes it impossible to get any tool in there....
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Old 12-06-2019, 02:28 PM   #233
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Default Re: Soldering station thoughts and guidelines

i think that station that is actually from zhong-di uses the setup where the exposed ceramic element goes into the tip.
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Old 12-06-2019, 02:31 PM   #234
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Default Re: Soldering station thoughts and guidelines

http://www.china-zhongdi.com/
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Old 12-07-2019, 08:52 AM   #235
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Default Re: Soldering station thoughts and guidelines

Yes stj I have seen the same station with the name zhong-di.

When you remove the tip it is hollow and there is an exposed heater in the iron which does insert into the tip. I've had the solder station for years and am on my third or fourth iron now as the heater tends to weld itself into the tip after a while and when you wear a tip out and try to remove it, half the heater comes out with it. At least the replacement irons are cheap and readily available. I have two irons, one with the chisel tip and the other with a fine conical and I find it's easier to swap the iron when i want to instead of the tip.

I also had to replace the 78L05 voltage regulator that is behind the flourescent display as that is a common failure on these solder stations. Its difficult to solder in a replacement 78L05 without desoldering the entire display fIrst so I just tagged three wires onto the pcb and connected a 7805 on a bit of veroboard.

@dannyx
For rework magnification on the cheap I would recommend an illuminated bench magnifier

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/5X-Magnif...3485e417dd0f2a

I have two of them with circular flourescent lights rather than LED/ One I have had since the 1990's and it's just finally given up the ghost (springs worn out in the anglepoise stand) and it's 5 diopter. The other I picked up cheap at a flea market a few months ago and I'm pretty sure it is 8 diopter

Beware though that ebay sellers seem to have no concept of the terms 'magnification' and 'diopter' and use these terms interchangbly as though they mean the same thing.

Magnification (how many times bigger the image appears) = 1 + diopter/4

So 5x diopter (which sellers call 5x magnification more often than not) = 2.25x magnification

8x diopter = 3x magnification

I find either of these ideal for most soldering work, the 5 diopter is probably the better because 2.25x is a decent enough magnification for most jobs, it has very little edge distortion, has a large working distance and does not affect my distance perception at all. I find it perfectly intuitive to work under it. The 8 diopter was a little harder to get used to but I quickly learned to use it just fine.

The stereo microscope will be something completely new to me. I wanted the trinocular simulfocal one with the camera quite simply because I do have a use for the camera. I wanted the double boom stand for stability/adjustability. I also got it cheaper than the listing I posted it as i got it in the 'singles day' sale (11.11)

There are plenty of cheaper options which are basically the same microscope as the one I ordered but without camera and on a different stand. You could buy a different stand or a camera later

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/3297...chweb201603_55

Last edited by dicky96; 12-07-2019 at 09:04 AM..
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Old 12-07-2019, 09:27 AM   #236
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Unhappy Re: Soldering station thoughts and guidelines

Quote:
Originally Posted by dicky96 View Post
For rework magnification on the cheap I would recommend an illuminated bench magnifier
I actually have that. It's THIS one. I had this at my old shop and insisted that they'd get one for me over here, which they did, but because I was quickly shoved to the sidelines doing fieldwork, it saw little use
It does help, even if I only use it as a lamp about 90% of the time, but the most trouble I was having was getting the hot air nozzle under it, since the wand/dildo thing is too long and wouldn't fit there, while still keeping the magnifier at the correct distance so it'd still be in focus. I wear prescription glasses as well (nearsighted, at almost -5dp in each eye !), so I'm not sure if that affects the distance at which things come into focus under it. I tried sourcing some curved nozzles specifically made for this purpose of attacking the board from the side under the magnifier or scope, but couldn't find any that would fit my station. Mine uses two index nubs which lock into two grooves on the tip of the blower, whereas the ones I found use a screw-on collar to attach to the blower, so they wouldn't fit Of course this was all back at my first store, where I actually got to do the stuff I was supposed to, instead of being out in the cold all day like I am here
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Old 12-07-2019, 11:52 AM   #237
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Default Re: Soldering station thoughts and guidelines

I also wear prescription glasses though sometimes i wear contact lenses like when i am out at the beach for example. My eyesight is shite without my glasses. I am long sighted, maybe that makes a difference?

I was gonna ask why you didn't try angled nozzles lol maybe you could buy or fashion some sort of adapter? I believe the Quick 861DW has something like that so it can take the screw on collar type nozzles? More useful would have been to check the general availablility of nozzles before buying the hot air station in the first place doh! Which one do you have?

Other than that you probably need a new climate while you are at it! It's still getting to 22C-24C most days here at this time of year though it can get as low as 14C at night on the very coldest days in January/February brrrr....

https://www.accuweather.com/en/es/pu...orecast/306914

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Old 12-07-2019, 12:28 PM   #238
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Unhappy Re: Soldering station thoughts and guidelines

Quote:
Originally Posted by dicky96 View Post
I was gonna ask why you didn't try angled nozzles lol maybe you could buy or fashion some sort of adapter? I believe the Quick 861DW has something like that so it can take the screw on collar type nozzles? More useful would have been to check the general availablility of nozzles before buying the hot air station in the first place doh! Which one do you have?
I have an 858D station like in Dave's video here, both at home and at my former shop. I've seen this type is most commonly referred to as an Atten, though it's sold under many different other names, the product itself being identical. Mine's called YuYue or something like that and the one at my old store is a Bakku. They both use the same blower, despite the Bakku technically being a combined soldering iron-hot air station unit. Does the job, by no means professional, but for a casual user like myself it's more than adequate. The Bakku in particular paid for itself tenfold in the 3 years in which I worked there. The 861DW is like every tech's dream (I usually go after whatever Louis Rossmann uses), but at that price point it wouldn't pay for itself any time soon. That sort of station could certainly befit a large repair shop like the one I currently work in. I actually don't have a hot air station of my own here....yeah, simple as that I never asked for one to begin with, since I've been pulling field duty and haven't sat at my bench in like 6 months now. The ones I've seen around are all Gordaks and they're pretty old analog ones. They're pump-driven as well, so the airflow is sh!t IMO - I once had a go with one and found the air pump was not putting out nearly enough air as I would've liked it, even on maximum, so I would definitely NOT get a pump-driven station over a fan-driven one, like the 861DW or even the Atten and Bakku, though others have disagreed with this before....

About adapting something: I was thinking of making some sort of adapter out of metal or something, but then I thought it's easier to simply change the whole hand piece. The hand piece for the 858D comes in two different forms: one where the nozzles are tightened onto the tip by a screw and another which uses twist-lock nozzles, where two nubs locate inside two grooves on the tip and they're held together purely by friction. Sadly, both of mine are the latter kind, hence why I've been trying to source a replacement handle with the thinner tube at the end which accepts the screw-on nozzles, though it seems to be a bit of a gamble as to what you're going to receive, since despite my best efforts to try and explain what I want to the Chinese salesmen at the other end of Aliexpress, some simply don't understand what I mean, while others give me indecisive answers and we all know the pictures on Ali are only for reference and you may receive something completely different from what you've ordered. If you search for 858D you'll see what I mean: look at the metal part at the end of the nozzle: some are thinner and longer and others are stubbier. I need the former kind since unfortunately nobody seems to be making attachments for the twist-lock type, outside the "standard" straight pipes

Quote:
Originally Posted by dicky96 View Post
Other than that you probably need a new climate while you are at it! It's still getting to 22C-24C most days here at this time of year though it can get as low as 14C at night on the very coldest days in January/February brrrr....
You think that's cold ??? How's -1C in the morning sound ? There's nothing I can do about it anyway, so I sort-of got used to it in all these years
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Old 12-07-2019, 02:41 PM   #239
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Default Re: Soldering station thoughts and guidelines

Yeah I have an Atten 858D myself, I've had it 4 or 5 years and I agree you can do a lot of work with one of those and just have to accept it's limitations and what it can't do. I ordered a Quick 861DW now but it will not be here till next week I think. I'm still keeping the 858D.

I'm originally from the North West of the UK mate, so I know exactly what shite weather feels like. -1C in the winter mornings would be considered mild! The UK has about the third worst weather in the world, apparently, and most of the half decent weather it does get the southerners keep for themselves anyway.

When I decided I no longer wanted to live in the UK I got a choice of where to go instead so deliberately picked the place with the arguably best weather in the world.

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Old 12-11-2019, 07:20 AM   #240
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Default Re: Soldering station thoughts and guidelines

Actually, so far at least, I haven't faced a job which the Atten COULDN'T handle Sure, it may not be as fast or efficient as a Quick, but it pulled through, that's what matters. I suppose the only area where cheapy stations can fall short is when you're trying to desolder something big and you're pumping heat into it like mad for 5 minutes but nothing's happening because the station's not strong enough, so you're burning the board and the adjacent stuff, leaving you to wonder whether or not it was the component that was faulty to begin with or you messed it up when you cooked it....
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