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Old 09-10-2015, 03:33 AM   #1
TELVM
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Default 'First Tier Caps'

Excerpt from Uncle Tom's - PSUs 101: A Detailed Look Into Power Supplies:



"First-Tier Caps

Even the Japanese manufacturers include some mainstream lines in their portfolios, which aren't as good as their top-of-the-line products. So, in addition to the brand, we always take a closer look at the product family and its specifications to better judge capacitor quality and to make a rough estimation of their lifetime.

All Japanese caps are considered of high quality, and we like to see the following cap brands:
  • Rubycon
  • United Chemi-Con (or Nippon Chemi-Con)
  • Nichicon
  • Sanyo/Suncon
  • Panasonic
  • Hitachi
  • FPCAP or Functional Polymer Capacitor (ex-Fujitsu caps segment, which was bought by Nichicon)
  • ELNA

Besides Japanese manufacturers there are also several US and European vendors that make high-quality capacitors. Probably we won't meet any of the below cap brands inside a consumer grade PSU, at least their electrolytic offerings, but we decided that it still worth mentioning them.
  • Cornell Dubilier (USA)
  • Illinois Capacitor (Currently owned my Cornell Dubilier)
  • Kemet Corporation (USA)
  • Vishay (USA)
  • EPCOS (TDK company, Germany)
  • Würth Elektronik (Germany)"



Do you agree with all of the above, gentlemen?
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Old 09-10-2015, 03:46 AM   #2
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Default Re: 'First Tier Caps'

do we know about Würth Elektronik electrolytics???
they have cheap poly's, but the electrolytics are so new that i'v not seen them in anything.
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Old 09-10-2015, 05:28 AM   #3
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Default Re: 'First Tier Caps'

What about tantalum poly capacitors versus aluminum poly capacitors?
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Old 09-10-2015, 06:22 AM   #4
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Default Re: 'First Tier Caps'

I don't know anything about Wurth, I suspect they're rebranding capacitors or at least some series of capacitors.

I wouldn't include ELNA in the first tier category, not because they're poor quality but because the article is about power supplies and ELNA is not particularly known for low esr capacitors for power supplies.

I would include Su'scon and Ltec in the list of third tier capacitors along with Jamicon and Capxon .. if Delta can generally use Ltec and even Lelon capacitors with no big failure rates then they can't be that bad. I'd say they were better than Capxon for a long time. I'd have no problem using Su'scon capacitors to filter 3.3v rail or as additional capacitors on the modular boards of power supplies (where they're not stressed as much)

As for polymer capacitors Enesol is used a lot in power supplies and as far as I know they're good... and some OEM manufacturer uses Duratech a lot but this "newcomer" is really not that known (if I'm not mistaken they appeared in some Thermaltake models).

Apaq isn't used in power supplies but it's used in motherboards a lot, if they show up on dc-dc converters in power supplies, they would be good.
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Old 09-10-2015, 10:12 AM   #5
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Default Re: 'First Tier Caps'

I don't recall Delta using Lelon capacitors. IMO, Lelon belongs in the the fourth tier category, right down with CapXon (which should be there as well) and only a tiny hair above GSC/Sacon. I'd put Teapo right down with Fuhjyyu as well, to be honest. I understand that Teapo sell a large volume of capacitors, but they're far too fragile for their own good to be considered reliable whether they show evident signs of failure or not, and that has become clearer over time. On the other hand, all these bad capacitor manufacturers are inconsistent in quality, so people will always altercate over their quality based on their anecdotal experiences...

I'd say all the brands they listed belong in the fourth tier category except the Japanese brands. I don't know about some of the relatively unknown ones. If I absolutely had to, I'd list OST and LTEC as third-tier brands and Taicon as a second-tier brand. I take it by "mainstream" lines that they mean NCC's ultra low ESR wet electrolytics and early Nichicon HMs and HNs, and maybe Sanyo/Suncon WF. I don't know though, capacitors with that high a failure rate don't even merit the designation of "mainstream".
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Old 09-10-2015, 01:29 PM   #6
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Default Re: 'First Tier Caps'

I would exclude Epcos and Illinois Capacitor from the "First Tier" category.

Sure Epcos is owned by TDK, but who exactly is overseeing the production?

The same applies to Illinois Capacitor. I would never hesitate to purchase Cornell Dubilier, but I once purchased a primary Illinois Capacitor part from Newark/Farnell, and it came with the top slightly bulged and the sleeve formed on poorly.

They basically told me to go fly a kite. Have never touched their stuff since then.
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Old 09-13-2015, 05:13 PM   #7
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Default Re: 'First Tier Caps'

for me, if it aint japanese, it aint first tier. its a cultural thing only exhibited by the japanese.

look at the way some of you were treated by non-japanese manufacturers. their behaviour does not instil confidence in their product. who would want to buy from such a manufacturer whom arent even confident of their own product?

go google for info and videos on how the japanese produce their yubari melons, the most expensive melon and cantaloupe in the world. their attention to every detail instils supreme confidence in their product. clients would not hesitate to pay an arm and a leg for such a fine product!

so u have heaven and u have hell. u have been shown both. everyone wants to buy a piece of heaven irregardless of the cost. who would want to buy a piece of hell?! focking no one...

Last edited by ChaosLegionnaire; 09-13-2015 at 05:20 PM..
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Old 09-14-2015, 01:50 AM   #8
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Default Re: 'First Tier Caps'

I've run into TDK caps, any experience with those? They even make low-ESR caps!

Other than that, calling Vishay quality, eh. Maybe some parts of that company they have acquired have been making better stuff back in 90s. Some vere making terrible PoS. On average they are unreliable and even their semiconductors are failing. I would not buy Vishay unless there is no other alternative.

Generally, besides couple bad known series (which even japanese makers had) I also stick Man Yue (Samxon and X-CON) into 1st tier. Only taiwanese company which can make it I guess.
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Old 09-15-2015, 02:47 PM   #9
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Default Re: 'First Tier Caps'

I don't really like those Tier Lists...
Because we can't really know how good/bad the actual caps are...

We can only see how a couple of years old caps are...

Besides the most important thing is the enviroment the cap has to live in...
There are better Designgs that don't stress the caps that much and than there are real shitty designs where no cap can really last...

I'd rather have like a row of 6 Capxon caps instead of one or two 'Japanese' ones...

And a prime example for a real shitty layout:
DSC_3532 - small.jpg
You can see that there are some 'non redundancys' as well as caps next to Heatsinks and other shit...
Pretty awful that one is...
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Old 09-15-2015, 03:14 PM   #10
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Default Re: 'First Tier Caps'

FSP GLN, that is definitelly capacitor problem. It may be stressing caps a bit more but those custom not-in-datasheet crapxon KF caps are the only problem. They go bad everywhere not just around the heatsinks and in other PSUs from different manufacturers too.
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Old 09-15-2015, 03:44 PM   #11
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Default Re: 'First Tier Caps'

Yeah, but according to the datasheet the 8mm KF Series is specced for 3kh life, only 10mm and more are specced for 5kh...

And the other thing is:
What did those companys order from CapXon?
When they don't want decent quality, than that is what they will get...

Don't get me wrong, that's not great but you can NOT blame CapXon for delivering something the customer wants...
That's how they make their living...

Anyway, let's see how long the Rorsair RM and Superflower HX Series may last...

PS: A good example for what I mean is Delta and ltec Caps.
Some say they are not that great, but they last in Delta units.
That may be because Delta knows how to treat and use them right - others may not...

As the example seen above...
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Old 09-15-2015, 04:07 PM   #12
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Default Re: 'First Tier Caps'

And what I really don't like about those Tier Lists is that every half decent Capacitor manufacturer has different quality grades in stock...

And we always forget to take a look at the spec sheet and take a look at the rated lifetime of the caps...

With that in mind, it is no wonder that the Flex ATX PSU I have lying around has all Teapo SC bloated (came with a Core 2 Duo and is an AcBel PC6034. 180W)...
But those caps were the wrong choice to begin with!
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Old 09-15-2015, 04:10 PM   #13
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Default Re: 'First Tier Caps'

Crapxon makes no quality capacitor so I have not idea what else than crap are they supposed to want from that firm.
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Old 09-17-2015, 06:36 AM   #14
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Default Re: 'First Tier Caps'

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stefan Payne View Post
I'd rather have like a row of 6 Capxon caps instead of one or two 'Japanese' ones...
that would be fine if the psu was a cheap low-end model that is warrantied to last only 1-2 years. on a 3 year or more warrantied psu, no way. that would be uncharted territory. i dont fancy gambling or playing russian roulette with my hardware.

i think most of us who are here all like repairing stuff and dont like throwing stuff away and polluting the earth. hence the "no" to capxon is basically a "no" to the buy-and-throw-away culture. and its also a "yes" to a more greener earth. treehugging 4tw!
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Old 09-17-2015, 01:11 PM   #15
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Default Re: 'First Tier Caps'

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChaosLegionnaire View Post
that would be fine if the psu was a cheap low-end model that is warrantied to last only 1-2 years. on a 3 year or more warrantied psu, no way. that would be uncharted territory. i dont fancy gambling or playing russian roulette with my hardware.
That one with 6 CapXon in a row, 5 Years Warranty:
http://www.super-flower.com.tw/produ...8&ID=106&lang=

No Semi Fanless bullshit...


And let's see and wait how the Corsair RM will last...
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Old 09-17-2015, 03:56 PM   #16
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Default Re: 'First Tier Caps'

Quote:
Originally Posted by Behemot View Post
Crapxon makes no quality capacitor
And what is FH and GH Series in your opinion?!

FH is specced for 4-10kh and called ultra low ESR (and long life) ones.
GH is specced for 4-10kh and called high temperature and long life ones...

And here you have a link for the lineup...

But:
Capacitors of the same quality may cost about the same, even if it is a CapXon...
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Old 09-17-2015, 04:11 PM   #17
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Default Re: 'First Tier Caps'

Ultra-low ESR? Oh yeah my ass. Those are water elevtrolytes back from the era of Nichicon HN, Rubbies MCZ, MFZ etc. Long gone and none of them exceeded 2k hours top.

These are low-ESR up most. Even my custom high-capacity KZN do not reach Rubbies MBZ 1500 uF. They are close, but still not quite there.

The point is crapxon will never really make that specified life with temperature AND ripple. Paper withstands everything, they can write milion hours in there and it will be no difference.
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Old 09-17-2015, 04:18 PM   #18
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Default Re: 'First Tier Caps'

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stefan Payne View Post
And what is FH and GH Series in your opinion?!
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Old 09-17-2015, 04:34 PM   #19
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Old 09-17-2015, 04:47 PM   #20
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Default Re: 'First Tier Caps'

Yes, all CapXon capacitors are undoubted junk. And they have become seriously crappier junk over time. CapXon capacitors were always of poor quality but I don't recall them always failing every which way over a decade ago.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Behemot View Post
Ultra-low ESR? Oh yeah my ass. Those are water elevtrolytes back from the era of Nichicon HN, Rubbies MCZ, MFZ etc. Long gone and none of them exceeded 2k hours top.
Those MCZs and MFZs were sensitive to heat by way of their high water content. Early Nichicon HMs and HNs, and KZGs and KZJs, were bad because they had chemistry issues which caused their electrolyte to break down and form hydrogen gas even in storage.
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