Badcaps.net Forum
Go Back   Badcaps Forums > Troubleshooting Hardware & Devices and Electronics Theory > Troubleshooting Power Supplies and Power Supply Design
Register FAQ Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 11-14-2020, 09:44 AM   #1
roadrash
Badcaps Veteran
 
roadrash's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
City & State: Cambridgeshire
My Country: U.K.
Line Voltage: 240VAC
I'm a: Knowledge Seeker
Posts: 365
Default Sorting out old PC power supplies?

I have just been trying to sort out a couple of oldish PC power supplies that had stopped working. I found lots of domed caps and replaced them all. Still not got them working yest but I did notice a burn mark around one of the AC inputs to the PCB. There were 2 small capacitors near the burn mark as well and I removed them to check. They were both covered in some sort of black heat proof plastic. When I removed the plastic from one of them the blue colored cap inside fell into 2 parts (see photos attached). So I think this might be one of the problems. I cannot tell what these caps are but they look like ceramics and when I measure them the good ones show a value of around 160pf. I cant understand the markings on the caps so can someone tell what type these are and the value so I can order some.


thanks
Jon
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 20201114_141040.jpg (320.9 KB, 33 views)
File Type: jpg 20201114_141158.jpg (267.7 KB, 26 views)
File Type: jpg 20201114_141111.jpg (287.9 KB, 24 views)
roadrash is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2020, 11:16 AM   #2
stj
Great Sage 齊天大聖
 
stj's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
City & State: Europe
My Country: some shithole run by Israeli agents
I'm a: Professional Tech
Posts: 23,701
Default Re: Sorting out old PC power supplies?

MOV's probably
stj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2020, 03:40 PM   #3
roadrash
Badcaps Veteran
 
roadrash's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
City & State: Cambridgeshire
My Country: U.K.
Line Voltage: 240VAC
I'm a: Knowledge Seeker
Posts: 365
Default Re: Sorting out old PC power supplies?

Quote:
Originally Posted by stj View Post
MOV's probably
After googling I guess this is a type of mica cap (Muscovite mica).
What value should it be? Is it 150pf?
roadrash is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2020, 04:08 PM   #4
stj
Great Sage 齊天大聖
 
stj's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
City & State: Europe
My Country: some shithole run by Israeli agents
I'm a: Professional Tech
Posts: 23,701
Default Re: Sorting out old PC power supplies?

lol
Metal Oxide Varister.
a surge suppressor device.
was there a pair of these in parallel with the 2 smoothing caps?
stj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2020, 07:31 PM   #5
roadrash
Badcaps Veteran
 
roadrash's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
City & State: Cambridgeshire
My Country: U.K.
Line Voltage: 240VAC
I'm a: Knowledge Seeker
Posts: 365
Default Re: Sorting out old PC power supplies?

Quote:
Originally Posted by stj View Post
lol
Metal Oxide Varister.
a surge suppressor device.
was there a pair of these in parallel with the 2 smoothing caps?
Yes I think you are right. Hahaha a mica cap????
So what value is the one in my photo as I think I will need to replace it before the PSU will work again??
roadrash is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2020, 08:11 PM   #6
stj
Great Sage 齊天大聖
 
stj's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
City & State: Europe
My Country: some shithole run by Israeli agents
I'm a: Professional Tech
Posts: 23,701
Default Re: Sorting out old PC power supplies?

i suspect it was 150v, although that may be too low for a 240v input.
maybe that's why it blew up.

total rectified voltage is going to be about 340v so divided by 2 it's 170v
so using parts rated between 200 and 250v is probably wise

btw, the psu will run without them - so if it's dead it probably blew the fuse or killed an input filter
stj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2020, 10:55 PM   #7
momaka
master hoarder
 
momaka's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
City & State: VA (NoVA)
My Country: U.S.A.
Line Voltage: 120 VAC, 60 Hz
I'm a: Hobbyist Tech
Posts: 9,988
Default Re: Sorting out old PC power supplies?

Quote:
Originally Posted by stj View Post
btw, the psu will run without them - so if it's dead it probably blew the fuse or killed an input filter
^ This.

The MOVs are for surge / high-voltage protection on the input. If they are blown, probably the voltage on the input got way higher than it should have been (which BTW can also happen if some fool puts the 115/230V switch on the 115V position and the AC voltage is 230/240V... which it is on your side of the world.)

So just check the fuse, NTC, and bridge rectiifer. If they check out normally (or at least, you will probably need to replace the fuse, as I suspect that will be blown), the PSU should be able to turn On.

That's about all I can say here. Pictures of the individual PSUs would help if this still doesn't get them going.
momaka is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2020, 09:15 AM   #8
roadrash
Badcaps Veteran
 
roadrash's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
City & State: Cambridgeshire
My Country: U.K.
Line Voltage: 240VAC
I'm a: Knowledge Seeker
Posts: 365
Default Re: Sorting out old PC power supplies?

Quote:
Originally Posted by stj View Post
i suspect it was 150v, although that may be too low for a 240v input.
maybe that's why it blew up.

total rectified voltage is going to be about 340v so divided by 2 it's 170v
so using parts rated between 200 and 250v is probably wise

btw, the psu will run without them - so if it's dead it probably blew the fuse or killed an input filter
Thanks for that information STJ. I couldn't work out what the markings on the capacitor meant. One of those photos is of a good one that is exactly the same as the blown one. So if you can make sense of the makings in white on each side of the good one can tell what value it is?
roadrash is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2020, 09:22 AM   #9
roadrash
Badcaps Veteran
 
roadrash's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
City & State: Cambridgeshire
My Country: U.K.
Line Voltage: 240VAC
I'm a: Knowledge Seeker
Posts: 365
Default Re: Sorting out old PC power supplies?

Quote:
Originally Posted by momaka View Post
^ This.

The MOVs are for surge / high-voltage protection on the input. If they are blown, probably the voltage on the input got way higher than it should have been (which BTW can also happen if some fool puts the 115/230V switch on the 115V position and the AC voltage is 230/240V... which it is on your side of the world.)

So just check the fuse, NTC, and bridge rectiifer. If they check out normally (or at least, you will probably need to replace the fuse, as I suspect that will be blown), the PSU should be able to turn On.

That's about all I can say here. Pictures of the individual PSUs would help if this still doesn't get them going.
Thanks but afraid it wasn't over voltage (by me anyway) as the switch is set to 230v. Is it possible that this cap was just too old and failed like electrolytic's do? There is no fuse in the PSU but there would have been one in the plug on the power lead. I haven't checked the Rectifier yet but all other diodes are ok. I will remove it shortly to check as its quite likely to have got damaged to.
roadrash is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2020, 10:55 AM   #10
stj
Great Sage 齊天大聖
 
stj's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
City & State: Europe
My Country: some shithole run by Israeli agents
I'm a: Professional Tech
Posts: 23,701
Default Re: Sorting out old PC power supplies?

power spikes slowly kill surge supressors.
i had one explode in front of me once - the heatshrink is there for a reason!!
stj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2020, 05:09 PM   #11
momaka
master hoarder
 
momaka's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
City & State: VA (NoVA)
My Country: U.S.A.
Line Voltage: 120 VAC, 60 Hz
I'm a: Hobbyist Tech
Posts: 9,988
Default Re: Sorting out old PC power supplies?

Quote:
Originally Posted by roadrash View Post
Is it possible that this cap was just too old and failed like electrolytic's do?
It's not a cap, it's an MOV - completely different component.

As stj mention, sometimes they can also fail with time as they absorb high voltage spikes on the line.

If each of these is placed in parallel with the two 200V caps, then the new MOVs should have a rating of 180-220V. 180V may be a bit too low, though.

But again, these are not necessary, at least for determining if the PSU is working or not. First do that, because there is no point in replacing the MOVs if a voltage spike has also managed to blow something else downstream. In some cases, PSUs from damage like that may not always be economically repairable. So that's why you should find out if the PSU is working first (and if not, what else may be the problem, besides the blown MOVs.)
momaka is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2020, 07:38 PM   #12
R_J
Badcaps Veteran
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
City & State: ☻
My Country: Canada
I'm a: Professional Tech
Posts: 6,575
Default Re: Sorting out old PC power supplies?

Here is a mov datasheet, most are similar. 150 is the A/C rating which is likely around 200vdc with a clamping voltage around 400v
Attached Files
File Type: pdf V10K230.pdf (258.3 KB, 6 views)
R_J is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2020, 07:57 AM   #13
roadrash
Badcaps Veteran
 
roadrash's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
City & State: Cambridgeshire
My Country: U.K.
Line Voltage: 240VAC
I'm a: Knowledge Seeker
Posts: 365
Default Re: Sorting out old PC power supplies?

Thanks everyone for that very very useful info. As you can tell this is the first time iv'e encountered one of these MOVS blown up. Its a wonder you can see when they blow when they hide them inside a black plastic covering.
Well iv'e now got 2 of these type of PSU's not working that I have to sort. Iv'e just recapped 4 others that are working fine now.
Only one of the last two had a blown MOV and iv'e checked its bridge rectifier and its ok.
Basically both these PSU's are dead and so far iv'e checked all diodes, bridge rectifiers and replaced all Electrolytic caps some of which were domed.
What should I check next following this? Iv'e uploaded some pictures of these PSUs.
Thanks
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 20201116_125930.jpg (576.7 KB, 31 views)
File Type: jpg 20201116_130023.jpg (572.9 KB, 25 views)
File Type: jpg 20201116_130056.jpg (466.9 KB, 24 views)
File Type: jpg 20201116_130101.jpg (539.2 KB, 26 views)
File Type: jpg 20201116_130138.jpg (815.9 KB, 18 views)
roadrash is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2020, 09:39 AM   #14
roadrash
Badcaps Veteran
 
roadrash's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
City & State: Cambridgeshire
My Country: U.K.
Line Voltage: 240VAC
I'm a: Knowledge Seeker
Posts: 365
Default Re: Sorting out old PC power supplies?

Since my earlier post I found a fuse funnily enough well hidden covered in black plastic like the MOV's were.
I replaced the fuse amd tested both PSU's again. One is still dead and the other went pop and has blown a couple of surface mount resistors of the board.
So I think this one is not worth bothering with now.
The other one should still work once the fault it traced.
roadrash is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2020, 09:51 AM   #15
stj
Great Sage 齊天大聖
 
stj's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
City & State: Europe
My Country: some shithole run by Israeli agents
I'm a: Professional Tech
Posts: 23,701
Default Re: Sorting out old PC power supplies?

delta supplies are quality and always worth fixing.

btw, if the mov was not in the sleeving it would have made a fucking mess all over that side of the board!
stj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2020, 02:35 PM   #16
roadrash
Badcaps Veteran
 
roadrash's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
City & State: Cambridgeshire
My Country: U.K.
Line Voltage: 240VAC
I'm a: Knowledge Seeker
Posts: 365
Default Re: Sorting out old PC power supplies?

Quote:
Originally Posted by stj View Post
delta supplies are quality and always worth fixing.

btw, if the mov was not in the sleeving it would have made a fucking mess all over that side of the board!
Oh I wondered why it was covered in that heat shrink plastic. Shame about that one having a short somewhere. I suppose I can fix it if I can get the 2 surface mount parts out of an old scrap pcb and find the short that caused it.
Can you point me where to look next on the other delta supply that is ok but still dead. Like I said ,its got all new caps and ive checked all diodes, checked bridge rectifier and replaced fuse so far. Nothing happens when powered up its just dead.
roadrash is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2020, 02:48 PM   #17
stj
Great Sage 齊天大聖
 
stj's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
City & State: Europe
My Country: some shithole run by Israeli agents
I'm a: Professional Tech
Posts: 23,701
Default Re: Sorting out old PC power supplies?

let me try to find a schem - what is the details.
like part number or whatage, and the number on the control chip.
stj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2020, 05:42 PM   #18
PeteS in CA
Badcaps Veteran
 
PeteS in CA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
City & State: San Jose, CA
My Country: USA, Unsure of Planet
Line Voltage: 120VAC, 60Hz & 115VAC, 400Hz
I'm a: Professional Tech
Posts: 3,042
Default Re: Sorting out old PC power supplies?

Quote:
Originally Posted by stj View Post
power spikes slowly kill surge supressors.
i had one explode in front of me once - the heatshrink is there for a reason!!
I think I recognize the logo for Uppermost Electronic Industries on one of the parts. Definitely an MOV. Among surge suppressor diodes, MOVs, and gas discharge tubes, MOVs are faster than the tubes, absorb more energy than the diodes, and are inexpensive. The one major fault they have is that every time they absorb a hit a little bit of damage is done. Over time this lowers the voltage at which they start to conduct and eventually that voltage is low enough that they clamp at normal line voltage and blow up.

Power strips that have MOV surge suppressors should either be replaced entirely or have the MOVs replaced every 5 or 10 years, depending on your area's weather.
__________________
PeteS in CA

Power Supplies should be boring: No loud noises, no bright flashes, and no bad smells.

Where might is right
There is no right.
- Sophocles in "Antigone"
****************************
All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost;
- J.R.R. Tolkien, The Fellowship of the Ring
****************************
To kill personal responsibility, initiative or success, punish it by taxing it. To encourage irresponsibility, improvidence, dependence and failure, reward it by subsidizing it.
PeteS in CA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2020, 06:05 PM   #19
PeteS in CA
Badcaps Veteran
 
PeteS in CA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
City & State: San Jose, CA
My Country: USA, Unsure of Planet
Line Voltage: 120VAC, 60Hz & 115VAC, 400Hz
I'm a: Professional Tech
Posts: 3,042
Default Re: Sorting out old PC power supplies?

2007 vintage, probably 300W or 350W. Passive PFC. Looks like it's forward converter topology. For lower end off-the-shelf PSUs Delta probably would have used a 384x PWN and a Power Integrations regulator for the 5VSB.

The color coding looks like standard ATX, except I don't see a white -5V wire. I don't know if that had become common back in 2007. Look at the location on the ATX connector where the -5V wire normally would be. If it's -5V or there is no wire to the location, well and good. However in the late 90s and early 2000s I know (former Delta employee, here) Apple used the -5V location for an extra 3.3V socket. So if there is a wire and it's orange, you have an Apple power supply.

The point at which I suggest starting is whether or not you have 5VSB, the purple wire. If no 5VSB then that's where you start looking.

If you have 5VSB and grounding the PS-ON (green) wire doesn't turn on the main outputs then the PWM circuit is your starting point. Check the Vcc voltage on the 384x. If it's too low then there's probably a ~47uF cap that might be bad, or the resistor that charges it might be bad. Those provide the voltage to start up the 384x. One the PSU starts up the 384x Vcc usually is supplied by a bootstrap winding.
PeteS in CA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-17-2020, 12:28 PM   #20
roadrash
Badcaps Veteran
 
roadrash's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
City & State: Cambridgeshire
My Country: U.K.
Line Voltage: 240VAC
I'm a: Knowledge Seeker
Posts: 365
Default Re: Sorting out old PC power supplies?

Quote:
Originally Posted by stj View Post
let me try to find a schem - what is the details.
like part number or whatage, and the number on the control chip.
The label says its a "Enlight GPS-350ABC
here is photo of that label.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 20201117_182147.jpg (293.3 KB, 10 views)
roadrash is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



Badcaps.net Technical Forums 2003 - 2021
Powered by vBulletin ®
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:04 PM.
Did you find this forum helpful?