Badcaps.net Forum
Go Back   Badcaps Forums > General Topics > General Capacitor Questions & Issues
Register FAQ Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 09-20-2020, 06:14 PM   #41
bestsystem
Member
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 52
Default Re: Panasonic FC series - leaking? quality gone?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pc7fan View Post
It is indeed a non-aqueous series. Regardless, if a cap catches fire in a power supply, something's seriously wrong :P
i dont think fc is dangerous in any aspect, the fire is only started deliberately, pull out the bung, rip the paper and foil apart and burn it.

worry other fire sources first, FC will add minor fire hazard if the PSU or the car catch serious fire, i think.

I have many old spare japanese caps in the tool box, purchased from un official sources, with some very genuine looking paper carton (FC series) or plastic bags date coded 10-15 years ago. I recapped my hot LG monitor with them 4 years ago and will see how they last.
bestsystem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-30-2020, 09:52 PM   #42
bestsystem
Member
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 52
Default Re: Panasonic FC series - leaking? quality gone?

http://www.su-scon.com.tw/en/category/L.html

Su'scon (Taiwanese) catalog is interesting, clearly listing out their anhydrous caps.

They also have audio, low leakage and three types bipolar caps.
bestsystem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2020, 06:09 PM   #43
lti
Badcaps Veteran
 
lti's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
City & State: Windsor, Colorado
My Country: United States
I'm a: Hobbyist Tech
Posts: 2,101
Default Re: Panasonic FC series - leaking? quality gone?

I'm pretty sure everyone hates Su'scon (except that one guy).

I still have a computer power supply with Su'scon caps from 1998.
lti is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2020, 04:21 PM   #44
momaka
master hoarder
 
momaka's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
City & State: VA (NoVA)
My Country: U.S.A.
Line Voltage: 120 VAC, 60 Hz
I'm a: Hobbyist Tech
Posts: 10,385
Default Re: Panasonic FC series - leaking? quality gone?

I don't mind Su'scon that much. Their GP caps are not that great when there is a bit more heat. But their PSU caps aren't all that horrible. Seem to be doing better than most Teapo and even maybe on par with Taicon (though I haven't encountered as many PSUs with Taicon and Su'scon as I have with Teapo - both failed and working... so can't really say if it's a direct apples-to-apples comparison.)
momaka is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2020, 08:46 PM   #45
pc7fan
Badcaps Veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
City & State: Maritimes
My Country: Canada
Line Voltage: 250V Split-phased, 60 Hz
I'm a: Hobbyist Tech
Posts: 49
Default Re: Panasonic FC series - leaking? quality gone?

Quote:
Originally Posted by momaka View Post
I don't mind Su'scon that much. Their GP caps are not that great when there is a bit more heat. But their PSU caps aren't all that horrible. Seem to be doing better than most Teapo and even maybe on par with Taicon (though I haven't encountered as many PSUs with Taicon and Su'scon as I have with Teapo - both failed and working... so can't really say if it's a direct apples-to-apples comparison.)
I would vow Taicon (Nichicon, Taiwan) as a 2nd tier brand, along Samxon and SamYoung (NCC, Korea), excluding the faulty series. They are arguably decent and they seem to be consistent - lifetime wise. I have seen tons of Taicon and Samxon survive (with OK specs) beside failed CrapXon and Ltec in Delta supplies. Also seen Su'scon fail while the SamYoungs test fine in LG TVs with repetition, so it seems to me that it's not just luck. Regardless, the Japanese brands are where the reliability is at.

Last edited by pc7fan; 10-06-2020 at 08:52 PM..
pc7fan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2020, 06:12 PM   #46
bestsystem
Member
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 52
Default Re: Panasonic FC series - leaking? quality gone?

Another example to use GBL /low leakage current caps is memory battery backup or clock capacitor.
This capacitor is in parallel with a coin cell battery and provide energy during battery change.
Modern EL / poly caps tend to forsake the low leakage current properties. A 50ua leakage will drain a 100mah cr2025 coin cell in 2000 hours, less than 3 months, unacceptable. I need to keep it under 1ua or less.

Last edited by bestsystem; 10-10-2020 at 06:15 PM..
bestsystem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-30-2020, 10:35 AM   #47
clearchris
Badcaps Veteran
 
clearchris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
City & State: San Antonio
My Country: United States
Line Voltage: 120v 60hz / 240v 60hz
I'm a: Hardcore Geek
Posts: 455
Default Re: Panasonic FC series - leaking? quality gone?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pc7fan View Post
Samxon
I just recapped an 80s preamp that had exclusively samxson caps. Some had clearly gone bad, but I didn't see a bulge or a leak anywhere. Don't remember the series, but they were bright blue.

I don't know that I would buy samxson, but that's still pretty impressive.
clearchris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2020, 04:43 AM   #48
linuxguru
Badcaps Veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,464
Default Re: Panasonic FC series - leaking? quality gone?

It may have been noted earlier here - Panasonic HFE (discontinued) also leaks dark brown electrolytic from the bung, along with some out-gassed bubbles/froth. It's older than FC (which was suggested as the official replacement for HFE), so it may share some common ingredients in the electrolytic. I can't find the datasheet, but there's a reference to it being a low-impedance, 2000 h, 105 c type for general industrial applications.

Edit: The value was 3300uF/16V/12.5mm which I had used to recap a Hi-Pro 250W over a decade ago, so I really shouldn't be complaining - except that it was a silent failure which I just accidentally detected because the electrolyte had dripped to the top of the cap by virtue of it having been standing upside down in the PC (which had been acting intermittently flaky for a while). The cap hadn't domed or vented.

Last edited by linuxguru; 11-27-2020 at 04:55 AM.. Reason: addendum
linuxguru is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2020, 02:55 PM   #49
Wester547
-
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
City & State: CA.
My Country: USA.
Line Voltage: 120-125VAC 60Hz.
I'm a: Knowledge Seeker
Posts: 1,262
Default Re: Panasonic FC series - leaking? quality gone?

I enclosed the datasheet for the HFE series. HFG/HFQ was the recommended replacement at the time, after which the FC series became the modern equivalent. It seems all HF* series use the quaternary salts in the electrolyte and so suffer from this problem. I can understand very old series eventually succumbing to this “plague” of sorts, but I don’t understand how a problem such as this could slip QC and QA procedures by with regards to the FC series, a series still in production to this day, whilst PW and LXZ appear unaffected. It seems even the most rigorous endurance tests which accelerate degradation of parameters can only do so much to predict failure, hence why previously defective series have supposedly passed said tests. I guess the problem could also be the decomposition of the rubber bung.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf HFE.pdf (94.1 KB, 5 views)

Last edited by Wester547; 11-27-2020 at 03:04 PM..
Wester547 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2020, 03:11 PM   #50
linuxguru
Badcaps Veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,464
Default Re: Panasonic FC series - leaking? quality gone?

Thanks for the datasheet - I now have to locate all the Hi-Pros and similar that I had recapped then and replace the HFEs with NCC KY/KZE (of which I only have 2200uF/16, which should suffice). I haven't had any FC failures yet in an SMPS, but they're generally only in low-current bypasses or the -5v/-12v rails. One possible exception is on the primary side of the +5Vsb auxiliary flyback, where I've used 47uF/50V extensively over the last 15 years without a failure yet, but I'll probably switch to Rubycon YXG going forward.
linuxguru is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2020, 06:58 PM   #51
mockingbird
Badcaps Veteran
 
mockingbird's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 5,145
Default Re: Panasonic FC series - leaking? quality gone?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PeteS in CA View Post
The PJ series is between the PL series and the PW series chronologically, I believe. I think the PR series is contemporary with the PL series. The PM series is the RoHS-compliant version of the PL series, and the PS series is the RoHS-compliant PR series. The PA series (not the PA series of the late 70s) is the next step after the PW series, with impedances close to that of the aqueous HE series. I believe Nichicon's naming convention is P_ series are non-aqueous and H_ series are aqueous.
So PL and PR (obsolete) and PS/PM are to be avoided in that case...

So since FC is out of the picture, we're left with PW and LXY/LXZ for good, enduring non-aqueous parts...

I'm going back on what I said about SMG somewhere else -- I would avoid this series after reading a report of bloating in an old audio amplifier product (used in the PSU).

I have also discovered bulging Sanyo WG which have been sitting idly on an old P4 motherboard... True, the caps are from 2004, but in light of this it must be said that later HM and FJ/FL were probably superior.

Has anyone noticed "not to be sold in Japan" now at the top of many Panasonic aqueous series datasheets... Wonder what that's about...
__________________
...Their plight, in fact is even worse, they don't realize that they're cantonists, they think they're free men. What a slavery that is - to confuse slavery for light, and bitter darkness for bright light.
-Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneersohn
mockingbird is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2020, 07:15 PM   #52
linuxguru
Badcaps Veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,464
Default Re: Panasonic FC series - leaking? quality gone?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mockingbird View Post
So since FC is out of the picture, we're left with PW and LXY/LXZ for good, enduring non-aqueous parts...
There are several other options, including Panasonic FK, Nichicon PX, Elna RJH and automotives like Elna RK, RKB, etc. I also haven't seen failures of NCC LXA, LXV and LXF, though they may have the quarternary salt formulation mentioned by Wester.

Last edited by linuxguru; 11-29-2020 at 07:15 PM.. Reason: typo
linuxguru is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2020, 08:20 PM   #53
mockingbird
Badcaps Veteran
 
mockingbird's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 5,145
Default Re: Panasonic FC series - leaking? quality gone?

Quote:
Originally Posted by linuxguru View Post
There are several other options, including Panasonic FK, Nichicon PX, Elna RJH and automotives like Elna RK, RKB, etc. I also haven't seen failures of NCC LXA, LXV and LXF, though they may have the quarternary salt formulation mentioned by Wester.
LXA, LXV and LXF are obsolete though, no?

Elna is difficult to get, neither Mouser, Digikey or Newark/Farnell stock them, unless things have changed.

Look at the datasheet for PX. PX is a long-life version of PM. If the difference between PW and PV is only the bunge (solid white plastic bung on PV which boosts it to a 5000 hour part IIRC), then it may be correct to assume that PX is an analogue of PM in the same way, and should also be avoided.

In that case, PV would be preferable to PX, eventhough PX is supposedly 20,000 hours.

If you need something that's extra long life in a 5mm part, then UCC KYB, KZM, KZN and LL series are preferable... If you want a non-aqueous high endurance part, then go for Nichion PV (expensive).

If you don't mind 5mm parts that have a mediocre ripple and ESR spec but you need high endurance in a non-aqueous variety but don't want to pay a fortune for Nichicon PV, then go for Panasonic EB or Rubycon ML. It seems as though Panasonic EB is being phased out though.
mockingbird is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2020, 10:57 PM   #54
momaka
master hoarder
 
momaka's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
City & State: VA (NoVA)
My Country: U.S.A.
Line Voltage: 120 VAC, 60 Hz
I'm a: Hobbyist Tech
Posts: 10,385
Default Re: Panasonic FC series - leaking? quality gone?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mockingbird View Post
So PL and PR (obsolete) and PS/PM are to be avoided in that case...
PR for sure. I've seen many leak from the bung on old equipment.
PL seems to have fixed that, but they may still be not old enough to tell. So far so good, though.

PS is OK, IME.
PM, I've seen the leads oxidize with green corrosion near the bung on a bag of 16V, 100 uF caps in 6.3 mm dia. that I got from Mouser many years ago. Weird thing I saw the first cap like that in that bag just a few years after I bought the caps. But more interesting is that not all of these 16V, 100 uF caps had this problem, despite all being made in the same batch (or at least in the same factory, since they came in cut tape package and not as individual pieces.) Both the "good" and the "corroded" PM 16V 100 uF caps from that bag still measure in spec, though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mockingbird View Post
So since FC is out of the picture, we're left with PW and LXY/LXZ for good, enduring non-aqueous parts...
I wouldn't discard FC just yet.
There may be failures, but I don't think it's frequent enough yet to worry.

That said, PW and LXZ have been absolutely solid.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mockingbird View Post
I have also discovered bulging Sanyo WG which have been sitting idly on an old P4 motherboard... True, the caps are from 2004, but in light of this it must be said that later HM and FJ/FL were probably superior.
WG or WF?
WF are known bloaters - same as KZG or maybe even worse. See my post recently here:
https://www.badcaps.net/forum/showth...98#post1000498

WG I think I've heard of people (Wester547) mention here that these caps had failures before... but generally are reliable overall.

BTW, I've been using a few Rubycon YXJ lately for some of my PSU recaps. Seem like a good Nichi PW alternative right now and also quite cheap. Occasionally YXF too.

Last edited by momaka; 11-30-2020 at 10:59 PM..
momaka is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2020, 09:00 AM   #55
stj
Great Sage 齊天大聖
 
stj's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
City & State: Europe
My Country: some shithole run by Israeli agents
I'm a: Professional Tech
Posts: 24,589
Default Re: Panasonic FC series - leaking? quality gone?

if the cap industry ever reads this thread,
they need to start making really shitty polymers with liquid type esr numbers!
stj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2020, 12:46 PM   #56
PeteS in CA
Badcaps Veteran
 
PeteS in CA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
City & State: San Jose, CA
My Country: USA, Unsure of Planet
Line Voltage: 120VAC, 60Hz & 115VAC, 400Hz
I'm a: Professional Tech
Posts: 3,127
Default Re: Panasonic FC series - leaking? quality gone?

Quote:
Originally Posted by momaka View Post
PR for sure. I've seen many leak from the bung on old equipment.
PL seems to have fixed that, but they may still be not old enough to tell. So far so good, though.

PS is OK, IME.
PM, I've seen the leads oxidize with green corrosion near the bung on a bag of 16V, 100 uF caps in 6.3 mm dia. that I got from Mouser many years ago. ...
The PR and PL series were obsoleted some 15 years ago by Nichicon due to RoHS. PL was resurrected as the PM series; Nichicon intended to leave the PR series in its grave but resurrected it due to customer demand as the PS series.

OTOH, Nichicon simply converted the PJ and PW series to RoHS-compliant without changing the name. The much newer PA series, whose impedance and ripple current ratings are similar to the aqueous HE series (and its performance in my ripple current torture testing of long ago), has always been RoHS-compliant.
__________________
PeteS in CA

Power Supplies should be boring: No loud noises, no bright flashes, and no bad smells.

Where might is right
There is no right.
- Sophocles in "Antigone"
****************************
All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost;
- J.R.R. Tolkien, The Fellowship of the Ring
****************************
To kill personal responsibility, initiative or success, punish it by taxing it. To encourage irresponsibility, improvidence, dependence and failure, reward it by subsidizing it.
PeteS in CA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2020, 12:51 PM   #57
PeteS in CA
Badcaps Veteran
 
PeteS in CA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
City & State: San Jose, CA
My Country: USA, Unsure of Planet
Line Voltage: 120VAC, 60Hz & 115VAC, 400Hz
I'm a: Professional Tech
Posts: 3,127
Default Re: Panasonic FC series - leaking? quality gone?

Quote:
Originally Posted by stj View Post
if the cap industry ever reads this thread,
they need to start making really shitty polymers with liquid type esr numbers!
It was back in 2008, I think, but in my ripple current torture testing at Curtis Instruments I beat the @#$% out of some samples of polymers and they just kept working, deteriorating very slowly.
PeteS in CA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2020, 01:56 PM   #58
Per Hansson
Super Moderator
 
Per Hansson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
City & State: ----
My Country: Sweden
Line Voltage: 230v 50Hz
I'm a: Knowledge Seeker
Posts: 4,713
Default Re: Panasonic FC series - leaking? quality gone?

Quote:
Originally Posted by momaka View Post
I wouldn't discard FC just yet.
There may be failures, but I don't think it's frequent enough yet to worry
Agreed, I think it's easy to get carried away here at Badcaps.
Remember that they produce millions of these caps!
And here we have seen a couple bad samples.
Would need to be allot more to be classified as something really bad like Chemi-Con KZG or Nichicon HM's bad years IMO.
__________________
"The one who says it cannot be done should never interrupt the one who is doing it."
Per Hansson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2020, 02:14 PM   #59
mockingbird
Badcaps Veteran
 
mockingbird's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 5,145
Default Re: Panasonic FC series - leaking? quality gone?

Quote:
Originally Posted by momaka View Post
WG or WF?
WF are known bloaters - same as KZG or maybe even worse. See my post recently here:
https://www.badcaps.net/forum/showth...98#post1000498
Yes:





I tested the capacity and ESR. One read 1000uF or so and one was a bit under at 800uF or so... But both of them had an ESR of 0.7-0.8 Ohms. For comparison, I tested some 2014 datecode Nichicon HM, they all passed (around 10 mOhm).
Quote:
BTW, I've been using a few Rubycon YXJ lately for some of my PSU recaps. Seem like a good Nichi PW alternative right now and also quite cheap. Occasionally YXF too.
Yes, great caps... You can get a 6.3V 220uF cap in 5mm with YXJ. YXx like ZLx are both aqueous series. ZLx is probably an equivalent to UCC KZE and YXx to UCC KY and KYx.

Got a slightly better tester here... It's basically the same as your component tester with a programmable PIC chip, but the software gives better resolution on the ESR (up to 1mOhm) resolution... It's a $20 kit, but the PIC chip did not come programmed, so the programmer was like another $5 or so from China.

The motherboard pictured is a Gigabyte GA-8SIMLH.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMG_0125.jpg (294.9 KB, 62 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_0126.jpg (643.8 KB, 62 views)
mockingbird is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2020, 04:38 AM   #60
Figuratum
New Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2020
City & State: Scherpenzeel
My Country: The Netherlands
Line Voltage: Almost 245Vac 50Hz
I'm a: Professional Tech
Posts: 3
Default Re: Panasonic FC series - leaking? quality gone?

Hi there, as this is my first message, I'll introduce myself briefly:

My name is Peter and i have a small electronic repair bussiness in The Netherlands. I have visited this forum multiple times to gather useful info, and now I stumbled onto something you guys might be interested in.

For a recurring recapping job I needed 1000 uF 35v caps. Normally I stick with Rubycon, but as there was no stock of YXH caps, I bought some Panasonic PF caps. Unfortunately, they got just a bit too hot due to the ripple current (maybe because of the smaller size) so I did not use them in the end but contacted Mouser and they kindly restocked the Rubycons.

Today I needed a 1000uF cap with a smaller footprint for another repair and grabbed an FP that was still laying around (I think for a year or so) but noticed green corrosion at the legs base. This does not look good at all and after checking the rest I concluded that almost all of them (20) have the corrosion. As this is my firs post, I'm not able to post pictures, but I'll post them later.

The production code on the caps is 9826QG. I don't think they are from 98, but could not find what the right production date is. Does anyone know how to decode this?
Figuratum is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



Badcaps.net Technical Forums 2003 - 2021
Powered by vBulletin ®
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:25 PM.
Did you find this forum helpful?