Adding a bigger panel for a new house.

[Spork Schivago]

Re: Adding a bigger panel for a new house.

I guess it would depend on the economy and competition of other master electrician as far as how much they make. Master Electricians can own their own company and they oversee journeymen. This is why I would say they make more than $45 hour. Usually just to drive into ones yard is $90. If they work for themselves they have to afford the expense of a business. I am not sure if you will find one that will work for you in this manner. If they are unionized then I would say they will not. If you can find one that is not part of a union then you might be able to work with him. I do not know the laws in your area of unions. When I work as an electrician helper in Florida there was no union. There was a on job time and a test one had to pass to be a journey man and then an master electrician. The master electrician I worked for learned most of his craft on 125KV High power lines in Alabama.

Wow, that's crazy! So, I think I figured out where I went wrong. When I had read that they make 40$ - 45$ an hour (or whatever it was), I think they meant that's what they get paid when working for a bigger company. I mean, if you think about it, they're probably not working the full 40 hours they work each week and the company probably has to not only pay them for the hours they're not working, but also make a profit off of it, now we're talking some serious cash! If they don't have work for the master electrician to do, they still pay him I bet! I bet if we hired one through a company to upgrade those two boxes, we're probably looking at a lot of money, like a thousand dollars or more! Next time I talk to the B&C Plumbing guys, I'll ask them. They got HVAC guys and all that jazz. They'll be able to give me an estimate I bet.

[keeney123]

Re: Adding a bigger panel for a new house.

I would still see if I can find a master electrician that may help you. You might find one that is emphatic to your circumstances and will work with you. Otherwise, perhaps Kaboom will help walk you through things and maybe you and him could come to so financial understanding for his assistance. No matter how good or knowledgeable a person is it always is good to have another knowledgeable person looking over one's shoulder. This can eliminate many problems one may be blind to.

[Spork Schivago]

Re: Adding a bigger panel for a new house.

I would still see if I can find a master electrician that may help you. You might find one that is emphatic to your circumstances and will work with you. Otherwise, perhaps Kaboom will help walk you through things and maybe you and him could come to so financial understanding for his assistance. No matter how good or knowledgeable a person is it always is good to have another knowledgeable person looking over one's shoulder. This can eliminate many problems one may be blind to.

Yeah, when it comes to it, if Kaboom is interested, I would be happy to see if we could work out some type of compensation financially. It'd be great if I could do it myself with someone walking me through the tough parts (ie, what size wire to run from the outside panel / meter box, etc). If he's not interested, that is fine too. I can always just try finding someone local. If we get approved for the loan and move in, that'll probably be one of the first few things we do. Right now, August 20th will be the soonest we can move in, but that date can change either way. Just trying to figure out how much cash we're gonna need to do the various things we'd want to do, to make sure it's not going to cost a billion dollars to fix the house up, you know?

[budm]

Re: Adding a bigger panel for a new house.

Do not forget about having proper tools also.

[Spork Schivago]

Re: Adding a bigger panel for a new house.

What would I need for proper tools? Maybe something that could drill into cement...my father has a drill that can do that. I think I could borrow that. Maybe something to cut giant gauge wire, that would be hard. Maybe where I buy the wire from, they might custom cut it. My dad's got a lot of sockets, ratchets, stuff for drywall, etc. Is there anything in particular you was thinking I might need Budm?

[budm]

Re: Adding a bigger panel for a new house.

Tools to cut big gauge wires, snake to pull the new wires if needed, hand tools, etc.
Of you trying to hire someone to observe you doing the work, he will have to basically teach you at the same time if you never done the work before so ask him if he is willing to teach you at the same time because it will take more time when you run into problems.

[keeney123]

Re: Adding a bigger panel for a new house.

I am a big believer in Klein tools. You need "insulated handles" to large linemen pliers/cutters for twisting solid wire and cutting wire, strippers that have the exact gauge holes in the front part of the tool, long nose pliers for turning wire in a shape to go around the screws, screwdrivers and large diagonal cutters for cutting the sheathing of the romex off. The diagonal cutters are useful after one strips the romex with the box cutter. You can reach in the receptacle box and cut the sheathing as far back as you can to allow maximum room in the box. It would also be useful to have a box knife for cutting down the middle of the romex to strip the sheathing. One has to be very careful with the box cutter so as not to cut through the insulation on the line or neutral wires. The middle wire usually is a ground wire. A light pressure on the romex sheathing will mark the sheathing with out completely cutting through. The very end of the wire one can cut through so you can grab the sheathing pulling it to strip in off of the wires.
Also, it would be useful to learn how to do this for any future project you may have.
Lastly a linesmen's tool belt so you can strap it around your waist so you do not have to hunt for tools as they will be there for you.

[keeney123]

Re: Adding a bigger panel for a new house.

You will need staples for securing the romex to wood. The best staples, if you can get them, have plastic on them where they come in contact with the romex sheathing. When you hammer the staples the idea is to not pinch the wire, but to make it so the romex sheathing can not move back and forth under the staple yet not to crush the sheathing. All solid wire needs to be twisted prior to putting a twist nut on. I even twist the stranded wire. I also wrap a piece of electrical tape around the bottom of the twist nut and insulation clockwise direction, same way the twist nut is tightened, of the wire to make sure it stays secure to wire. I like the twist nuts that do not have wings to them as those are less bulky in the box. Also, when you put a wire around a screw you want go in the same direction so the wire twist tighter around the screw instead of going against the grain.

[stj]

Re: Adding a bigger panel for a new house.

twist-nut?
damn your "safety standards" are low!
if i ever caught someone using those i would hurt them!

[Spork Schivago]

Re: Adding a bigger panel for a new house.

I am a big believer in Klein tools. You need "insulated handles" to large linemen pliers/cutters for twisting solid wire and cutting wire, strippers that have the exact gauge holes in the front part of the tool, long nose pliers for turning wire in a shape to go around the screws, screwdrivers and large diagonal cutters for cutting the sheathing of the romex off. The diagonal cutters are useful after one strips the romex with the box cutter. You can reach in the receptacle box and cut the sheathing as far back as you can to allow maximum room in the box. It would also be useful to have a box knife for cutting down the middle of the romex to strip the sheathing. One has to be very careful with the box cutter so as not to cut through the insulation on the line or neutral wires. The middle wire usually is a ground wire. A light pressure on the romex sheathing will mark the sheathing with out completely cutting through. The very end of the wire one can cut through so you can grab the sheathing pulling it to strip in off of the wires.
Also, it would be useful to learn how to do this for any future project you may have.
Lastly a linesmen's tool belt so you can strap it around your waist so you do not have to hunt for tools as they will be there for you.

I've successfully ran wires and hooked up receptacles / light switches / moved switches and receptacles to different sides of the door way / put up drywall / insulation / etc. Last thing I did, with a little advice, was run some heavier gauge (10/2 I think) to a double pole 30-amp breaker and to a NEMA L6-30-R outlet (like this one: http://www.homedepot.com/p/30-Amp-25...-100117946-_-N ).


That's not a pitiful attempt to brag or anything, that's just me trying to show you guys where my knowledge level is, so you can get a better idea of how much help I'd need with something like replacing the panel. The reason I needed help was because I wasn't sure about codes and wanted to do it proper. For example, here, because it was 10/2, I had to wrap the one white hot wire with black electrical tape where it was going into the one breaker so the next person working on it would know that it was hot (although, by seeing it go into the breaker, I'd think they'd be able to tell that, so not really sure why we have that code, but eh). I didn't know I can to use special wire because it was in a crawl space but I used the right type of wire and because I wasn't drilling through the joists, I learned I had to staple the wire. I struggle with the code stuff a bit. If I had a chance to do it again, I'd of ran 10/3 instead of 10/2.

One question I got...I know backstabbing is bad but a lot of outlets I look at now, they got a plate by the screw where the wires hook up and they're designed for you to loosen the screw and slide the bare wire, unbent, behind the plate and tighten the screw back down. Is that not a good idea? Should I always bend the wire and wrap it around the screw before tightening the screw?

[Spork Schivago]

Re: Adding a bigger panel for a new house.

You will need staples for securing the romex to wood. The best staples, if you can get them, have plastic on them where they come in contact with the romex sheathing. When you hammer the staples the idea is to not pinch the wire, but to make it so the romex sheathing can not move back and forth under the staple yet not to crush the sheathing. All solid wire needs to be twisted prior to putting a twist nut on. I even twist the stranded wire. I also wrap a piece of electrical tape around the bottom of the twist nut and insulation clockwise direction, same way the twist nut is tightened, of the wire to make sure it stays secure to wire. I like the twist nuts that do not have wings to them as those are less bulky in the box. Also, when you put a wire around a screw you want go in the same direction so the wire twist tighter around the screw instead of going against the grain.

I don't think I'll be running much wire...there's two panels already there. I was hoping the wires would be long enough where I could put the new larger panel in the middle of where the old two are and just hook them up to new breakers. Hopefully, I don't have to extend any wires but even if I did, wouldn't I just use a junction box and wire nuts inside to connect the new wire to the old? I wouldn't actually be running new wire from the receptacles / switches / fans / whatever to the new panel I wouldn't think. I don't think I'd need to worry a lot about the NM staples.

The staples I have are the newer kind that are plastic. Here's the ones I've used last and currently own a bunch of: http://www.homedepot.com/p/Gardner-B...S-75/100137358

I got the older style too (the ones that are just metallic) but like you, I prefer the plastic ones. You don't really gotta worry about them pinching the wire so much, especially if you get the right sized ones. I got a bunch of different plastic ones, the ones I linked too are the ones I last bought, for this project, because of the heavier gauge wire I was using.

I never played with stranded wire for AC, I didn't even know stuff like that existed. I've always had solid. The wire nuts aren't a problem, but I've been thinking. Normally, I'll do the black electrical tape at the bottom like you was talking, just to make sure it stays on. I always go with the twist, never against, so I'm good there. I took a basic electricity class back in school and we learned how to wire up receptacles and switches. We'd frame a fake wall and then wire it up properly. I've been studying the NEC and see where they say you're allowed to solder the wires. Is that better? I wouldn't have to worry about them ever coming off, although I have to say, in all my years, when properly done, I don't think I've ever had a wirenut just come off by itself. The down fall would be the next person working on it, they'd need to have a soldering iron to undo the connection. What do you think?

[Spork Schivago]

Re: Adding a bigger panel for a new house.

twist-nut?
damn your "safety standards" are low!
if i ever caught someone using those i would hurt them!

What do you guys use? I'm sure there's times when you need to connect two or more wires together...when used properly, those wire nuts seem pretty secure. I know I can't physically pull one off that I put on. I can unscrew it, but pulling it off doesn't seem to work. That's before I tape them, I always give them a nice tug, to make sure they're secure. If they're not, I've used the wrong side or twisted the wire inside incorrectly.

[Spork Schivago]

Re: Adding a bigger panel for a new house.

Tools to cut big gauge wires, snake to pull the new wires if needed, hand tools, etc.
Of you trying to hire someone to observe you doing the work, he will have to basically teach you at the same time if you never done the work before so ask him if he is willing to teach you at the same time because it will take more time when you run into problems.

I got a friend who owns one of those wire snakes. I've never heard of them before but I've heard of people pulling wire through. I think maybe it's getting time for us to purchase one. They're not too expensive, from what I've heard, 15$ maybe....

The tools to cut the big gauge wire...that's something I'll need help with, for sure. I was looking at the wire that goes into my panel here at this house and honestly, I can't figure out how they cut it. I was thinking maybe a freaking hacksaw or something! That's huge!!!

I wonder if they make special tools for stripping the sheathing off the romex. The last stuff I had was good wiring but all three wires inside were insulated from each other with the sheathing. In the past, I seem to remember the inside wires just having the rubber around them but the sheathing just going around all three. With this 10/2, I had to use a box cutter and carefully go down the middle where the bare was and then carefully slice down the sides to free the black and white wires. It was a real pain. If I accidently cut too deep, I had to snip the wire and start all over again. Wish there was special tool for that, like the stuff they have for ethernet. They got a tool to remove the outer sheath.

I've also seen some videos where it seems there's some wire strippers out there that have a gauge on them so you strip the wire for receptacles and switches and stuff to the perfect length. No bare wire showing. I don't got any strippers like that. I wonder if Keeney or you would know where I'd find a nice pair like that. Keeney suggested a brand name. I got a mix of different brand name tools. I got Craftsman for certain things, NAPA for others, and then a mix of tools that I've seem to of found work really well and hold up real well. Don't know who made half the stuff. I got a real nice stripper for the smaller gauges that work real nice. The stuff for the larger gauge isn't nothing special, but eh.

[diif]

Re: Adding a bigger panel for a new house.

Twist nuts and tape sounds nasty.
Over here a qualified electrician is required to install most things, definitely a new consumer unit as they are the only ones that can issue a certificate to show it's been done properly. (I had one fitted a couple of years ago, along with the first fix for 30 down lighters and kitchen sockets).

For wire stripping I've always used a Stanley knife.

[Spork Schivago]

Re: Adding a bigger panel for a new house.

Twist nuts and tape sounds nasty.
Over here a qualified electrician is required to install most things, definitely a new consumer unit as they are the only ones that can issue a certificate to show it's been done properly. (I had one fitted a couple of years ago, along with the first fix for 30 down lighters and kitchen sockets).

...

So are do you guys combine two or more wires? What do you mean by a new consumer unit?

I can't really think or two many ways besides wire nuts / tape / solder to combine wires together...I guess you could use screw down terminals in some sort of panel. That'd work I guess. Is that what you guys have? Some sort of panel where you screw down the various wires that you want to connect together (ie, you want to splice into a line and run a new outlet from it but there's no outlets or switches near by to run off of...here, we'd just cut the wire, use maybe a junction box and some wire nuts / tape). Basically, something like this:

https://www.teksupply.com/wcsstore/E...ge/lj2100a.jpg

Keep in mind, the tops been removed so you can see inside.

[kaboom]

Re: Adding a bigger panel for a new house.

when used properly, those wire nuts seem pretty secure. I know I can't physically pull one off that I put on. I can unscrew it, but pulling it off doesn't seem to work. That's before I tape them, I always give them a nice tug, to make sure they're secure. If they're not, I've used the wrong side or twisted the wire inside incorrectly.

Just a quick post for now....

Emphasis mine. Wirenuts get a bad rap because many don't "pre twist!"

Never count on the spring to either twist the wires and/or carry current. You must have a good splice before you twist the wirenut on.

I don't care that the instructions were changed several years ago to suggest "no pretwisting required;" this was apparently done to make those "unskilled" feel more "comfortable" installing stuff that didn't understand. I don't mean "Happy Homeowner" here- it refers to those to proud to take any pride in their work...

Remember, soldered splices are still allowed per the NEC, but they also need to be twisted (secure connection established) before soldering.

there's two panels already there. I was hoping the wires would be long enough where I could put the new larger panel in the middle of where the old two are and just hook them up to new breakers

If the jacketed portion of existing cables reaches the new panel enclosure, you can still enter that enclosure; you may splice the individual conductors inside to land them on the busses/bkrs. You are allowed to splice within panelboard enclosures provided "box fill" isn't exceeded.

Hint: box fill isn't as much an issue as it appears. I'm talking now about device/junction boxes- usually, if it "seems" too small to work in and you go up a size or two for more room, you're usually OK.

In the typical Siemens/Murray 40/40 panel, such as this one:


you'll have enough room to splice/extend your existing conductors. These also have four pegs on each corner of the panelboard itself; keep the wires on the outside of these and you'll never have them interfere with the bkr positions.

Existing cables/ckts that don't reach can be landed in overhead 4sq boxes; then come out of those with NM-b "whips" into the new panel.

[stj]

Re: Adding a bigger panel for a new house.

you combine wires traditionally with a ceramic terminal block or bakelite junction box.

although now, you can do low current (under 25a) with helacon.

[Spork Schivago]

Re: Adding a bigger panel for a new house.

...I don't care that the instructions were changed several years ago to suggest "no pretwisting required;"...

This sounds like a horrible idea! When you twist the wires before putting the wirenut on, they work in tandem, you know? The tighter the wirenut, the tighter the twist becomes and the harder for the nut to come off I feel.

Remember, soldered splices are still allowed per the NEC, but they also need to be twisted (secure connection established) before soldering.

I've never soldered AC lines before. Is it generally frowned upon or is it a waste of time? Are there really any benefits to soldering them after twisting them?

If the jacketed portion of existing cables reaches the new panel enclosure, you can still enter that enclosure; you may splice the individual conductors inside to land them on the busses/bkrs. You are allowed to splice within panelboard enclosures provided "box fill" isn't exceeded.

I'd rather not have to have spliced wires inside the box if I could help it. I'd rather keep them outside and everything, I just think it looks nicer, personally. If it comes down to it though, I'll remember that. It's probably a lot better than trying to pull new wire through and I'm sure it's a heck of a lot cheaper!

Existing cables/ckts that don't reach can be landed in overhead 4sq boxes; then come out of those with NM-b "whips" into the new panel.

That's what I planned on using. If the wires weren't long enough, I thought maybe I could just use the 4sq boxes. Then I didn't see anyone suggesting it and I thought maybe the reason was because it wasn't the "proper" way, even if it was up to code. Glad to know there's nothing wrong with it! I bet I could even get it looking pretty nice like.


From looking at our box here, it just doesn't seem like there's much to these now. I think the biggest thing would be running the actually big gauge wires to the box. That's something I'd probably need help with, other than that...it looks pretty straightforward. From what I can tell, on my box, the neutral bar is tied into the GND bar. Is that normal and allowed or was someone just being lazy? I can't really see how they could of wired it different with what's coming into this actual box here...

[diif]

Re: Adding a bigger panel for a new house.

So are do you guys combine two or more wires? What do you mean by a new consumer unit?

I can't really think or two many ways besides wire nuts / tape / solder to combine wires together...I guess you could use screw down terminals in some sort of panel. That'd work I guess. Is that what you guys have? Some sort of panel where you screw down the various wires that you want to connect together (ie, you want to splice into a line and run a new outlet from it but there's no outlets or switches near by to run off of...here, we'd just cut the wire, use maybe a junction box and some wire nuts / tape). Basically, something like this:

https://www.teksupply.com/wcsstore/E...ge/lj2100a.jpg

Keep in mind, the tops been removed so you can see inside.

Consumer unit is the thing with the breakers/fuses in.

A new socket would be added in the ring or a spur taken from a socket. I personally wouldn't chop into the ring main to add an extra spur using twist nut and tape. That's just me though, I'm no electrician, I'm just going on what I've been told is best practice.

[stj]

Re: Adding a bigger panel for a new house.

that would be illegal in the u.k. anyway.

no twists, no tape, and no inline splices or couplers.
if you break the ring, you need to wire from each nearby original socket to the new one with a single length of cable to re-create the ring.
.