Using higher amperage receptacles with lower amperage breakers

[Spork Schivago]

Hi.

There's nothing wrong with using a receptacle that's rated for a higher amperage than what the breaker is rated for, is there?

For example, if I have a breaker that's rated for 15 amp and the wire gauge from the breaker to the receptacle is currently 14-gauge, it wouldn't hurt putting in a receptacle that could handle a maximum amperage of 20-amp, is that correct?

The breaker would trip if the receptacle tried drawing more than 15-amp, I'd think, and we'd never be able to draw more than 15-amp without upgrading the wiring and the breaker, despite the receptacle being rated for a maximum of 20-amp, right?

Thanks!

[stj]

Re: Using higher amperage receptacles with lower amperage breakers

no problems at all - as long as you remember not to plug anything BIG into it - or you will be looking for a flashlight at 3am to reset the breakers!

actually, you could overload the wiring on the socket, because the breaker is rated for the whole floor/circuit - not one outlet!

[Spork Schivago]

Re: Using higher amperage receptacles with lower amperage breakers

no problems at all - as long as you remember not to plug anything BIG into it - or you will be looking for a flashlight at 3am to reset the breakers!

But this would happen regardless of what the receptacle is rated for. If the breakers and receptacles matched in how much amperage they handled, I still wouldn't be able to go over that amount without tripping something.

Or do you mean 15-amp just isn't that good and I should upgrade the wiring and breakers to support 20-amp?

actually, you could overload the wiring on the socket, because the breaker is rated for the whole floor/circuit - not one outlet!

I don't see why this would matter. Even though the breaker is rated for the whole circuit, that just means any load on that circuit can be a maximum of whatever amperage at any one time. For example, two 10-amp devices would be okay on a 20-amp breaker or one 20-amp device would be okay on a 20-amp breaker, regardless of how many receptacles and switches are on the circuit.

I mean, if I had a device that says it draws 20-amp and I was using a 20-amp breaker, it might trip. That was just a simplified example. The breaker shouldn't care how many devices are hooked to the circuit. All it should care about is how much load the total circuit is using, I'd think.

Or am I really wrong in this train of thought?

[keeney123]

Re: Using higher amperage receptacles with lower amperage breakers

It just is not a good idea as people would think it can handle the power rated for. Having a breaker tripping all the time is not good either as it will damage the breaker.

[rhomanski]

Re: Using higher amperage receptacles with lower amperage breakers

I have a microwave in the kitchen that draws a good bit. I have to be careful what is on when I use it, or the breaker will "break". Since the wall socket isn't labeled and if it's in the normal places in the house, It won't matter a bit if it's rated for 20 amps. In fact it my be preferable for it to be higher rated because then the stress will be on the breaker if you try to pull too much. I'd rather my wires and wall sockets don't get hot when I use them.

[Spork Schivago]

Re: Using higher amperage receptacles with lower amperage breakers

It just is not a good idea as people would think it can handle the power rated for. Having a breaker tripping all the time is not good either as it will damage the breaker.

But that's the only problem it'd cause, right?

The only reason I'm asking is I gotta replace a GFCI outlet. I don't know what's in the walls yet. Right now, I don't really care so much, but eventually, I plan on upgrading the panel and using those arc-fault breakers (they're required for code here I believe). Anyway, I think there's too many loads on a circuit right now (ie, too many receptacles / switches per breaker). I pulled the wall plate off the light switch in the hallway and it's not right at all.

The GFCI outlet in the bathroom isn't right at all. Sometimes, when you flip the fan, it trips the GFCI outlet, but the fan still works. So, I think it's not wired properly. Anyway, the inspector tested it when we bought the house and said it needed to be replaced and there was something really wrong with it.

If the wires in the wall are something like 14-2, I'll upgrade them to something like 12-2, just not right now. I don't got the cash to do it all right now, but eventually, I'll do it. I want 20-amp outlets in the house. I know I won't use 20-amp devices in that receptacle until it can handle it...

I don't think most people look at the rating of the outlets before plugging things in. I don't think most people even know about amperage. I think they just plug it in, if it trips, they'll reset the breaker, try again, if it trips again, they'll try another outlet or ask for help.

I was just asking because I didn't want to do something that could burn the house down, you know? You guys think it'll be safe that way, at least until I save up the cash to run new wires?

[redwire]

Re: Using higher amperage receptacles with lower amperage breakers

If you're plugging in something with a 20A plug, it probably needs 20A.
I don't see what this is good for?
The breaker protects everything downstream - wiring, splices, receptacles.

At the next step, I guess it's common for people to upsize a breaker that nuisance trips, i.e take out the 15A and put in a 20A. Nobody uses a 20A one in a house - kitchens are dual 15A, stoves, dryer etc are bigger.
I've had fire inspectors flip if they see a 20A breaker (because they know it was originally a 15A/14 AWG in the panel).

[Spork Schivago]

Re: Using higher amperage receptacles with lower amperage breakers

I have a microwave in the kitchen that draws a good bit. I have to be careful what is on when I use it, or the breaker will "break". Since the wall socket isn't labeled and if it's in the normal places in the house, It won't matter a bit if it's rated for 20 amps. In fact it my be preferable for it to be higher rated because then the stress will be on the breaker if you try to pull too much. I'd rather my wires and wall sockets don't get hot when I use them.

That's what I was thinking. From what Keeney and you say, it sounds like it'll be fine. There might be the heavier gauge wire in the wall already. I can't tell just by looking at it though. I'll have to see what it's got written on it to be certain.

[Spork Schivago]

Re: Using higher amperage receptacles with lower amperage breakers

If you're plugging in something with a 20A plug, it probably needs 20A.
I don't see what this is good for?
The breaker protects everything downstream - wiring, splices, receptacles.

At the next step, I guess it's common for people to upsize a breaker that nuisance trips, i.e take out the 15A and put in a 20A. Nobody uses a 20A one in a house - kitchens are dual 15A, stoves, dryer etc are bigger.
I've had fire inspectors flip if they see a 20A breaker (because they know it was originally a 15A/14 AWG in the panel).

Do you mean no one uses a 20-amp breaker with 14 gauge wire? The old house we had, almost all the breakers were 20-amp. My sisters house, she got all 15-amp breakers and they gotta watch what they plug in because they're always tripping breakers.

I thought it was lights were generally 15-amp, receptacles were generally ran off a 20-amp breaker. Is this not the case?

[redwire]

Re: Using higher amperage receptacles with lower amperage breakers

In my travels, I've only ever seen 15A breakers feeding residential branch circuits. Of course I'm not an electrician. Copied from Mike Holt's forums:

Use of multiple 15 amp receptacles on a 20 amp circuit is permitted. A duplex receptacle is considered as multiple receptacles and is therefore permissible to use as the single, or one of several, multiple type receptacles on the circuit.

Receptacles rated higher than the circuit rating may not be used, so 20 amp receptacles are not permitted on a 15 amp circuit.

http://www.lowellmfg.com/tinymce/jsc...owellPlugs.pdf

For your GFCI tripping on the bathroom fan, the GFCI output is a dedicated hot+neutral going out to loads. I would say the fan is getting hot or neutral from another circuit, in other words not fed exclusively by the GFCI and so it trips but the fan keeps running.

[keeney123]

Re: Using higher amperage receptacles with lower amperage breakers

But that's the only problem it'd cause, right?

The only reason I'm asking is I gotta replace a GFCI outlet. I don't know what's in the walls yet. Right now, I don't really care so much, but eventually, I plan on upgrading the panel and using those arc-fault breakers (they're required for code here I believe). Anyway, I think there's too many loads on a circuit right now (ie, too many receptacles / switches per breaker). I pulled the wall plate off the light switch in the hallway and it's not right at all.

The GFCI outlet in the bathroom isn't right at all. Sometimes, when you flip the fan, it trips the GFCI outlet, but the fan still works. So, I think it's not wired properly. Anyway, the inspector tested it when we bought the house and said it needed to be replaced and there was something really wrong with it.

If the wires in the wall are something like 14-2, I'll upgrade them to something like 12-2, just not right now. I don't got the cash to do it all right now, but eventually, I'll do it. I want 20-amp outlets in the house. I know I won't use 20-amp devices in that receptacle until it can handle it...

I don't think most people look at the rating of the outlets before plugging things in. I don't think most people even know about amperage. I think they just plug it in, if it trips, they'll reset the breaker, try again, if it trips again, they'll try another outlet or ask for help.

I was just asking because I didn't want to do something that could burn the house down, you know? You guys think it'll be safe that way, at least until I save up the cash to run new wires?

20 amp lines have definite looking plug. You will be alright. Todays code is 12-3. You do not want a 20 amp breaker on a 14 gauge wire. You can look this up in wire gauges and how much current they will handle. It is all figured on cross sectional area of a wire and type of wire. As diameter of wire doubles cross sectional area goes up X4. Also insulation of the wire must be considered. Most insulation will stand up to 140 degrees F to 150 F

[Spork Schivago]

Re: Using higher amperage receptacles with lower amperage breakers

In my travels, I've only ever seen 15A breakers feeding residential branch circuits. Of course I'm not an electrician. Copied from Mike Holt's forums:

Use of multiple 15 amp receptacles on a 20 amp circuit is permitted. A duplex receptacle is considered as multiple receptacles and is therefore permissible to use as the single, or one of several, multiple type receptacles on the circuit.

Receptacles rated higher than the circuit rating may not be used, so 20 amp receptacles are not permitted on a 15 amp circuit.

http://www.lowellmfg.com/tinymce/jsc...owellPlugs.pdf

For your GFCI tripping on the bathroom fan, the GFCI output is a dedicated hot+neutral going out to loads. I would say the fan is getting hot or neutral from another circuit, in other words not fed exclusively by the GFCI and so it trips but the fan keeps running.

For the GFCI, yes, that's what I meant by it not being wired properly. I don't know the official word, I just call it daisy chaining them. I believe you gotta do it on the line side. When one trips, it should kill power to all the devices.

This isn't the reason the GFCI needs to be replaced though. There's something physically wrong with it, according to the inspector, and per his recommendations, we're going to replace it. I'm going to go for the 20-amp GFCI outlets though. I went down the panels and I have two 15-amp breakers. The majority of them are 20-amp, but there's one 60-amp and maybe a 25-amp.

According to what you posted, it says a 20-amp receptacle is not permitted for us on a 15-amp circuit. Is that referring to the NEC? If not, who's not permitting it? If it is the NEC, remember, there's different rules for commercial and residential. That's not to say that what you wrote isn't true, I just wanted to make sure that was for residential and not commercial.

Also, I think it's a horrible idea to upsize a breaker, without making sure the wire for the circuit can handle the higher amperage. I think that's how people start fires. The breaker is tripping for a reason. Something isn't right. Find the issue and fix it, you know? Kinda like my friends car. Radio kept on blowing a fuse so he put a 50-amp fuse in there. It started smoking and the stereo broke. Maybe if we wasn't there, it would have caught fire? I dunno.

Thanks for sharing.

[Spork Schivago]

Re: Using higher amperage receptacles with lower amperage breakers

20 amp lines have definite looking plug. You will be alright. Todays code is 12-3. You do not want a 20 amp breaker on a 14 gauge wire.

12-3 for 120V? Or is that for 240V? What the heck would you do with the extra wire (the red one) if it's for 120V?

And I agree, you don't want a 20-amp breaker on a 14 gauge wire. That's how you burn down houses, right?

[stj]

Re: Using higher amperage receptacles with lower amperage breakers

it would be cool for u.s. guys to wire houses with both phases at every socket.
then you can have 120v or 240v at any socket in the house.

[Spork Schivago]

Re: Using higher amperage receptacles with lower amperage breakers

it would be cool for u.s. guys to wire houses with both phases at every socket.
then you can have 120v or 240v at any socket in the house.

How would you switch between the voltages? Just a little switch, like what's on the back of most desktop PSU's? A little switch that says 120V / 240V?

That would be cool. For the most part, all the 120V devices I've seen have had the same plug on them. But all the 240V devices I've seen, they've all had different plugs on them. And with any plug, they gotta be rated for the correct amperage.

For my BGA rework station, I got a NEMA 6 plug that can handle a lot of amperage. The BGA rework station draws a decent amount. I think if someone could just plug it into any outlet though, most people wouldn't actually look at the amperage it draws and just plug it in. That's my experience at least with 120V. Most of the people I know, they don't even know what amperage is. If it will fit, they'll plug it in. If it trips a breaker, they'll try again. If it happens once again, they'll try another receptacle. Sometimes, they'll turn off other devices in the room.

My other sister, she's a bit crazy, but anyway, she's got an AC and in their trailer, to use it, they gotta turn off things like the TV, otherwise it trips the breaker. If it was me, I'd just run a lower gauge wire (like 12-2 or whatever) and upgrade the breaker, to handle the higher amperage, but I guess for them, it's just too much work. Maybe having the ability to hook any 240V device into the receptacles wouldn't be the best idea, I dunno. Still a cool idea!

[stj]

Re: Using higher amperage receptacles with lower amperage breakers

you would select the voltage simply by how you wired the device plug.

for 240v use phase A+B, for 120v use phase A+0v/centertap/gnd

also, wire the sockets so the 2 phases are crossed over on every other socket.
otherwise every 120v device will load the same phase.

[keeney123]

Re: Using higher amperage receptacles with lower amperage breakers

12-3 for 120V? Or is that for 240V? What the heck would you do with the extra wire (the red one) if it's for 120V?

And I agree, you don't want a 20-amp breaker on a 14 gauge wire. That's how you burn down houses, right?

That is for 120V 12-3 the third wire is ground. So one has white, black, green.

[dmill89]

Re: Using higher amperage receptacles with lower amperage breakers

That is for 120V 12-3 the third wire is ground. So one has white, black, green.

Usually it would be referred to as 12-2 w/ground, which would have black, white, and green/copper. 12-3 would generally have black, white, and red, as well as green/copper if grounded (12-3 w/ground).

[redwire]

Re: Using higher amperage receptacles with lower amperage breakers

I find NEC Article 210 Branch Circuits is saying "no" to a 20A receptacle on a 15A circuit. I don't see clauses differentiating residential or commercial buildings.
NEC maximum load on a circuit is 80% of the receptacle rating/circuit rating. So this would not be met. It's probably to prevent nuisance trips when running a 20A load, which a 20A receptacle invites on a 15A circuit.
There's no hazard with a 15A breaker as the limiting factor- it's just drama I think the standard is trying to avoid?

Note you can put a 15A (duplex) receptacle on a 20A circuit, and 50A receptacle on a 40A circuit.

[keeney123]

Re: Using higher amperage receptacles with lower amperage breakers

Usually it would be referred to as 12-2 w/ground, which would have black, white, and green/copper. 12-3 would generally have black, white, and red, as well as green/copper if grounded (12-3 w/ground).

I have seen it both ways. I once got 14-2 an had only that a black and white wire. Since then I have always looked for 14-3 and if ground is specified as also inclusive then I will look for 14-2 with ground. Also, I have seen 14-2 with ground be a bare ground wire and 14-3 having the ground wire with and green insulating coating.