Power supply build quality pictorial. part 2 - Page 92

**Stefan Payne** · 05-06-2014, 05:17 PM

Well, I'm bored and since here are some PSU geeks:
Could someone tell me the topology used in the following unint?

I still don't understand how that thing works (or how (in)efficient it could be)...

**Agent24** · 05-06-2014, 06:42 PM

It's certainly different to what I've seen before. I don't know the topology just by looking at it but if you find the model numbers of the control IC(s) etc it shouldn't be hard to find out.

I do see a PIC microcontroller in there which is interesting, I wonder what they're using that for?

**stj** · 05-06-2014, 07:09 PM

that probably runs at very high frequency.
those small transformers made from winding wire together and then winding the transformer are a pain to make.
it's done to avoid what's called "skin effect"

**c_hegge** · 05-06-2014, 08:25 PM

I have a unit just like it in my spare PSU stash. It's an NMB. I can't remember much about the parts and design of it off the top of my head, though.

**Pentium4** · 05-06-2014, 08:28 PM

Am I seeing date codes for 2003?! Wow that thing must have cost a fortune! And with 5600µF caps, that output must be clean

**stj** · 05-06-2014, 08:41 PM

i'v seen build quality like that in SGI & SUN psu's

**Wester547** · 05-06-2014, 08:48 PM

Bulk capacitance has more to do with voltage regulation (transients) than ripple suppression (which ESR and ripple rating determine). Well, bulk capacitance does play a factor in suppressing the low frequency ripple on the primary side (in the voltage doubler, and the degree of which passes straight through the output), but less so on the secondary (high frequency ripple). Yes, the skin effect isn't something you want, and higher switching frequencies foster it (causing the current flow to be concentrated toward the outer part of the wire, as stated before me). As for the topology, I see a tiny transformer on the primary side which I've seen in double forward driving the high side MOSFETs. So I think it might be a variation of double forward with Active PFC (unless it's a 230V only PSU) but I could be wrong. Needless to say, it's nice to see all those LXZs on the secondary, that PSU will last a very long time assuming nothing else fails.

**Behemot** · 05-07-2014, 01:12 AM

It seems like having special transformer for each single positive rail.

**Stefan Payne** · 05-07-2014, 01:51 AM

Sadly it's a WTX PSU so I can't really test it :-/

**c_hegge** · 05-07-2014, 05:39 PM

I might put mine on the load tester when I get a spare moment. I have re-pinned the ATX connector, so it's totally standard now. I also cut out the fan grille on my one and replaced it with a wire grille, as the punched out grille was quite restrictive.

**Behemot** · 05-08-2014, 04:24 AM

Hardcore modders as myself usually cut the grille and put nothing in there…so than you can test your brand-new recapped Enermax Liberty with Samxons, pulling 300W from it, passively cooled (having fan obstructed by ATX 12 V cable). It worked fine for couple hours and from that time works several years for sure with the fan spinning normally. Last like a year year it runs 24/7. So I guess recap went OK

**Stefan Payne** · 05-08-2014, 01:27 PM

That reminds me of a mod someone in the Computerbase.de forum did. I saw it because he was trying to sell that PSU (fortunately no one did buy it).

Looked like this:

(c)EspE...

He removed the plastic foil from the fan, put the cover the other way around back onto the PSU and the fan ontop of that.

Well, I was speechless when I saw that...

Quote:

Originally Posted by c_hegge

I might put mine on the load tester when I get a spare moment. I have re-pinned the ATX connector, so it's totally standard now. I also cut out the fan grille on my one and replaced it with a wire grille, as the punched out grille was quite restrictive.

Thanks a lot.
I was thinking about doing the same, but a more hardcore approach...

I have a spare set of cables from a be quiet! E5-550W, witch failed. It's an FSP epsilon unit with 100% CapXon caps. And guess what.
Sadly I didn't see the thing before I scrapped that unit...
Well, you know those layouts, maybe...

So I could desolder the cables in the NMB unit and put sleeved cables from a modern PSU in it. Question is if it makes sense...

**Behemot** · 05-08-2014, 05:10 PM

Well the Fusion 550 (basicaly OEM Seasonic 500 W) has fan from outside by design

**Pentium4** · 05-13-2014, 09:07 PM

Found an Award PSU that looked suspiciously like a Hirpo, and it was! I did a fair amount of "mods" to it. Recapped it, upgraded the 470µF input caps with 560µF, replaced the 20A schottky on the 12V with identical 20A schottky's in parallel, soldered on two molex, a 6 pin PCIe, and a 4 pin to make the motherboard connector 24 pin, redid some bad joints. Single forward with a 10A FET on the primary. 5V uses a 40A schottky, and it uses a DC-DC conversion to make the 3.3V. The death-ADDA was dry so I oiled it. It runs very silent. I love how big the heatsinks are and the 12.5mm slots for the caps. I was really impressed with the voltage regulation on the 12V. I loaded it up to 175W almost purely 12V. While cold the 12V read 12.18V, after a half hour of running it read 12.17V, and the fan barely picked up pace.

**Wester547** · 05-13-2014, 09:16 PM

Some joints were bad? Did they actually cause the PSU to be unstable or did they just "look" bad (which would be characteristic of Hipro as back then they did average soldering)? +5V uses a 40A schottky? So does that mean the other one is 30A (+3.3V, I know the FET itself that regulates +5V down to +3.3V is a 40A ST part)? Can you read the label on the main switcher behind that daughterboard on the primary? Sorry for all the questions.

I really like how large those ferrite coils are, much larger than the ones in the 200/250W Hipros from Dell (but those units are still tanks after a recap and if necessary either a fan swap or lubing). That toroid is kind of small for 300W, though (the toroids in those 250W Hipros are much larger). Also, the fan barely picked up pace because you added another 20A schottky on the +12V rail. Note how the thermistor is mounted to the secondary heatsink so the fan revs up as the temperature of the secondary heatsink augments.

That unit uses linear regulation to get +3.3V so the +3.3V voltage regulation and ripple suppression should be very very good. Also, is the fan AD0812HS-A70GL or AD0812MS-A70GL?

**goodpsusearch** · 05-13-2014, 09:17 PM

Very good job and photos!

What is the marking on the fet?

**Pentium4** · 05-13-2014, 09:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wester547

Some joints were bad? Did they actually cause the PSU to be unstable or did they just "look" bad (which would be characteristic of Hipro as back then they did average soldering)? +5V uses a 40A schottky? So does that mean the other one is 30A (+3.3V, I know the FET itself that regulates +5V down to +3.3V is a 40A ST part)? Can you read the label on the main switcher behind that daughterboard on the primary? Sorry for all the questions.

I really like how large those ferrite coils are, much larger than the ones in the 200/250W Hipros from Dell (but those units are still tanks after a recap and if necessary either a fan swap or lubing). That toroid is kind of small for 300W, though (the toroids in those 250W Hipros are much larger). Also, the fan barely picked up pace because you added another 20A schottky on the +12V rail. Note how the thermistor is mounted to the secondary heatsink so the fan revs up as the temperature of the secondary heatsink augments.

That unit uses linear regulation to get +3.3V so the +3.3V voltage regulation and ripple suppression should be very very good. Also, is the fan AD0812HS-A70GL or AD0812MS-A70GL?

They looked bad, as in extremely "blobby" which is unlike Hipro. And surprisingly, there was a slightly lifted pad next to the grounding leg of the primary heatsink. Yeah the 3.3V one was 30A. The toroid does look small, I bet it could do 300W but gets hot. Yes, I'm hoping that the extra rectifier helped the efficiency out, it's just using two MBR20100CT's. Plus, that heatsink is so tall and thick!

Yeah I think the ripple will be in good shape, the caps I used should be quite a bit better than the Teapo SC, SS, and SEK used. I like how Hipro has such a nice feedback loop design so they aren't picky with caps.

Shoot, I don't remember the fan model number but I'll try and remember to check tomorrow!

Quote:

Originally Posted by goodpsusearch

Very good job and photos!

What is the marking on the fet?

Thank you! It's a Fairchild FQA9N90C, so I was wrong, it's rated for 9A.

Edit: Here's a pic of that little daughter-board:

**Wester547** · 05-13-2014, 10:58 PM

So the fan spins rather slowly? Did you stick a flashlight onto it and were the blades visible or did you just not feel much airflow from it, or is it just because it's extremely quiet?

**Pentium4** · 05-14-2014, 11:16 AM

It spins slow but moves quite a bit of air. I'd guess it spins around 800RPM at low load and 1000RPM under that load. The fan is a AD0812HS-A70GL

**Wester547** · 05-14-2014, 11:31 AM

That would mean that the blades are spinning very slowly - 800RPM - 1000RPM is too slow for an 80mm fan to be moving much air at all. I'd guess it's closer to 1200RPM to 1400RPM (the blades still may look somewhat "slow" at that point but it'd be hard to see them without a flashlight - at 800RPM - 1000RPM you wouldn't even need a flashlight to see the blades spinning, assuming the room has good light). I find that ADDA fans actually don't move as much air as Delta or Sunon fans do at the same speed, though (but those brands are quite a bit noisier).

05-06-2014, 06:42 PM	#1822
Agent24 I see dead caps Join Date: Oct 2007 City & State: Hiding inside a plated-through hole My Country: New Zealand Line Voltage: 230VAC 50Hz I'm a: Hobbyist Tech Posts: 4,698	Re: Power supply build quality pictorial. part 2 It's certainly different to what I've seen before. I don't know the topology just by looking at it but if you find the model numbers of the control IC(s) etc it shouldn't be hard to find out. I do see a PIC microcontroller in there which is interesting, I wonder what they're using that for? __________________ "Tantalum for the brave, Solid Aluminium for the wise, Wet Electrolytic for the adventurous" -David VanHorn

05-06-2014, 07:09 PM	#1823
stj Great Sage 齊天大聖 Join Date: Dec 2009 City & State: Europe My Country: some shithole run by Israeli agents I'm a: Professional Tech Posts: 26,785	Re: Power supply build quality pictorial. part 2 that probably runs at very high frequency. those small transformers made from winding wire together and then winding the transformer are a pain to make. it's done to avoid what's called "skin effect"

05-06-2014, 08:25 PM	#1824
c_hegge Badcaps Veteran Join Date: Sep 2009 City & State: North Coast, NSW My Country: Australia Line Voltage: 240V 50Hz I'm a: Professional Tech Posts: 5,051	Re: Power supply build quality pictorial. part 2 I have a unit just like it in my spare PSU stash. It's an NMB. I can't remember much about the parts and design of it off the top of my head, though. __________________ I love putting bad caps and flat batteries in fire and watching them explode!! No wonder it doesn't work! You installed the jumper wires backwards Main PC: Core i7 3770K 3.5GHz, Gigabyte GA-Z77M-D3H-MVP, 8GB Kingston HyperX DDR3 1600, 240GB Intel 335 Series SSD, 750GB WD HDD, Sony Optiarc DVD RW, Palit nVidia GTX660 Ti, CoolerMaster N200 Case, Delta DPS-600MB 600W PSU, Hauppauge TV Tuner, Windows 7 Home Premium Office PC: HP ProLiant ML150 G3, 2x Xeon E5335 2GHz, 4GB DDR2 RAM, 120GB Intel 530 SSD, 2x 250GB HDD, 2x 450GB 15K SAS HDD in RAID 1, 1x 2TB HDD, nVidia 8400GS, Delta DPS-650BB 650W PSU, Windows 7 Pro

05-06-2014, 08:28 PM	#1825
Pentium4 CapXon Be Gone Join Date: Sep 2011 City & State: Idaho My Country: USA Line Voltage: 120VAC 60Hz I'm a: Hardcore Geek Posts: 3,216	Re: Power supply build quality pictorial. part 2 Am I seeing date codes for 2003?! Wow that thing must have cost a fortune! And with 5600µF caps, that output must be clean

05-06-2014, 08:41 PM	#1826
stj Great Sage 齊天大聖 Join Date: Dec 2009 City & State: Europe My Country: some shithole run by Israeli agents I'm a: Professional Tech Posts: 26,785	Re: Power supply build quality pictorial. part 2 i'v seen build quality like that in SGI & SUN psu's

05-06-2014, 08:48 PM	#1827
Wester547 - Join Date: Nov 2011 City & State: CA. My Country: USA. Line Voltage: 120-125VAC 60Hz. I'm a: Knowledge Seeker Posts: 1,265	Re: Power supply build quality pictorial. part 2 Bulk capacitance has more to do with voltage regulation (transients) than ripple suppression (which ESR and ripple rating determine). Well, bulk capacitance does play a factor in suppressing the low frequency ripple on the primary side (in the voltage doubler, and the degree of which passes straight through the output), but less so on the secondary (high frequency ripple). Yes, the skin effect isn't something you want, and higher switching frequencies foster it (causing the current flow to be concentrated toward the outer part of the wire, as stated before me). As for the topology, I see a tiny transformer on the primary side which I've seen in double forward driving the high side MOSFETs. So I think it might be a variation of double forward with Active PFC (unless it's a 230V only PSU) but I could be wrong. Needless to say, it's nice to see all those LXZs on the secondary, that PSU will last a very long time assuming nothing else fails. Last edited by Wester547; 05-06-2014 at 09:01 PM..

05-07-2014, 01:12 AM	#1828
Behemot Badcaps Veteran Join Date: Dec 2009 City & State: Prague, 50°4'52.22"N, 14°23'30.45"E My Country: CZ Line Voltage: 230 V/50 Hz I'm a: Knowledge Seeker Posts: 4,702	Re: Power supply build quality pictorial. part 2 It seems like having special transformer for each single positive rail. __________________ Less jewellery, more gold into electrotech industry! Half of the computer problems is caused by bad contacts Exclusive caps, meters and more! Hardware Insights - power supply reviews and more!

05-07-2014, 01:51 AM	#1829
Stefan Payne Badcaps Veteran Join Date: Dec 2009 City & State: Northern Germany My Country: Germany Line Voltage: 230VAC/50Hz or 400VAC/3P/50Hz I'm a: Knowledge Seeker Posts: 1,259	Re: Power supply build quality pictorial. part 2 Sadly it's a WTX PSU so I can't really test it :-/

05-07-2014, 05:39 PM	#1830
c_hegge Badcaps Veteran Join Date: Sep 2009 City & State: North Coast, NSW My Country: Australia Line Voltage: 240V 50Hz I'm a: Professional Tech Posts: 5,051	Re: Power supply build quality pictorial. part 2 I might put mine on the load tester when I get a spare moment. I have re-pinned the ATX connector, so it's totally standard now. I also cut out the fan grille on my one and replaced it with a wire grille, as the punched out grille was quite restrictive.

05-08-2014, 04:24 AM	#1831
Behemot Badcaps Veteran Join Date: Dec 2009 City & State: Prague, 50°4'52.22"N, 14°23'30.45"E My Country: CZ Line Voltage: 230 V/50 Hz I'm a: Knowledge Seeker Posts: 4,702	Re: Power supply build quality pictorial. part 2 Hardcore modders as myself usually cut the grille and put nothing in there…so than you can test your brand-new recapped Enermax Liberty with Samxons, pulling 300W from it, passively cooled (having fan obstructed by ATX 12 V cable). It worked fine for couple hours and from that time works several years for sure with the fan spinning normally. Last like a year year it runs 24/7. So I guess recap went OK

05-08-2014, 05:10 PM	#1833
Behemot Badcaps Veteran Join Date: Dec 2009 City & State: Prague, 50°4'52.22"N, 14°23'30.45"E My Country: CZ Line Voltage: 230 V/50 Hz I'm a: Knowledge Seeker Posts: 4,702	Re: Power supply build quality pictorial. part 2 Well the Fusion 550 (basicaly OEM Seasonic 500 W) has fan from outside by design

05-13-2014, 09:16 PM	#1835
Wester547 - Join Date: Nov 2011 City & State: CA. My Country: USA. Line Voltage: 120-125VAC 60Hz. I'm a: Knowledge Seeker Posts: 1,265	Re: Power supply build quality pictorial. part 2 Some joints were bad? Did they actually cause the PSU to be unstable or did they just "look" bad (which would be characteristic of Hipro as back then they did average soldering)? +5V uses a 40A schottky? So does that mean the other one is 30A (+3.3V, I know the FET itself that regulates +5V down to +3.3V is a 40A ST part)? Can you read the label on the main switcher behind that daughterboard on the primary? Sorry for all the questions. I really like how large those ferrite coils are, much larger than the ones in the 200/250W Hipros from Dell (but those units are still tanks after a recap and if necessary either a fan swap or lubing). That toroid is kind of small for 300W, though (the toroids in those 250W Hipros are much larger). Also, the fan barely picked up pace because you added another 20A schottky on the +12V rail. Note how the thermistor is mounted to the secondary heatsink so the fan revs up as the temperature of the secondary heatsink augments. That unit uses linear regulation to get +3.3V so the +3.3V voltage regulation and ripple suppression should be very very good. Also, is the fan AD0812HS-A70GL or AD0812MS-A70GL? Last edited by Wester547; 05-13-2014 at 09:26 PM..

05-13-2014, 09:17 PM	#1836
goodpsusearch Badcaps Veteran Join Date: Oct 2009 City & State: Thessaloniki, Greece My Country: Greece Line Voltage: 230VAC 50Hz I'm a: Knowledge Seeker Posts: 2,137	Re: Power supply build quality pictorial. part 2 Very good job and photos! What is the marking on the fet?

05-13-2014, 10:58 PM	#1838
Wester547 - Join Date: Nov 2011 City & State: CA. My Country: USA. Line Voltage: 120-125VAC 60Hz. I'm a: Knowledge Seeker Posts: 1,265	Re: Power supply build quality pictorial. part 2 So the fan spins rather slowly? Did you stick a flashlight onto it and were the blades visible or did you just not feel much airflow from it, or is it just because it's extremely quiet?

05-14-2014, 11:16 AM	#1839
Pentium4 CapXon Be Gone Join Date: Sep 2011 City & State: Idaho My Country: USA Line Voltage: 120VAC 60Hz I'm a: Hardcore Geek Posts: 3,216	Re: Power supply build quality pictorial. part 2 It spins slow but moves quite a bit of air. I'd guess it spins around 800RPM at low load and 1000RPM under that load. The fan is a AD0812HS-A70GL Last edited by Pentium4; 05-14-2014 at 11:18 AM..

05-14-2014, 11:31 AM	#1840
Wester547 - Join Date: Nov 2011 City & State: CA. My Country: USA. Line Voltage: 120-125VAC 60Hz. I'm a: Knowledge Seeker Posts: 1,265	Re: Power supply build quality pictorial. part 2 That would mean that the blades are spinning very slowly - 800RPM - 1000RPM is too slow for an 80mm fan to be moving much air at all. I'd guess it's closer to 1200RPM to 1400RPM (the blades still may look somewhat "slow" at that point but it'd be hard to see them without a flashlight - at 800RPM - 1000RPM you wouldn't even need a flashlight to see the blades spinning, assuming the room has good light). I find that ADDA fans actually don't move as much air as Delta or Sunon fans do at the same speed, though (but those brands are quite a bit noisier).