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    #21
    Re: 18650 lithium cell need help understanding risks

    I have a camera that had been in storage for so long that the battery (Li-ion) was reading 0V (most likely the undervoltage protection had engaged). The camera would not charge the battery. I made a simple current and voltage limited power supply and ran about 800mA into the (1150mAh) battery for about half an hour. The camera then powered on.

    Comment


      #22
      Re: 18650 lithium cell need help understanding risks

      I use variable power supply to charge the unknown condition Li-ion, I set the max constant current to about 100mA and limit the max voltage about about 4V~4.2V, that way if it has shorted cell, the max current will be only 100mA, mast fast charger will force over 1A into dead cell so the cell will get very hot and can be dangerous.
      I will have to find that MAKITA batteries pack, do not remember where I put it at this point.
      Never stop learning
      Basic LCD TV and Monitor troubleshooting guides.
      http://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthr...956#post305956

      Voltage Regulator (LDO) testing:
      http://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthr...999#post300999

      Inverter testing using old CFL:
      http://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthr...er+testing+cfl

      Tear down pictures : Hit the ">" Show Albums and stories" on the left side
      http://s807.photobucket.com/user/budm/library/

      TV Factory reset codes listing:
      http://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthread.php?t=24809

      Comment


        #23
        Re: 18650 lithium cell need help understanding risks

        @ the tablet user what tablet is it ? Please provide a model and such if possible so I could verify for you usually there is an yellow light for charging but there is no specific standard that has been set for indication lights usually a blinking red light is a power issue unless we are talking PS3... But, in any case it would help if you provided more info I have seen other colors used for status indicators... Would a wall wart work quite possibly it would the only problem I see is it may take a lot longer and may not be as safe to use do not leave it unattended for too long... Usually higher amperage is better because the circuit will only draw the power it needs I think most laptop bricks are in the relm of 4 amps and technically the charger will be safer to use as you have to worry about chargers heating up and catching fire as well. What ever you do though research it well nothing like a burnt down house my uncle had an electrical fire due to a faulty load center that was recalled was not a cool deal at all. Many things he worked years to achieve down the tubes then he wound up with lots of health issues shortly after and wound up getting laid off things can go south in a hurry I guess is the moral try and be as safe as you possibly can!

        PS I accept not responsibility for your neglect to act with severe caution!

        Beyond this I would say knowing the model would help best! Then go gather data about the model your wall wart should have a rating for the output but you should be safe with the proper voltage and amperage the charging circuit on the laptop will do the rest providing it is good.

        And power jacks are dirty cheap on ebay but at times waiting on the slow boat from china sucks! So what I'll do is find a junker and salvage the parts for this type of item either use a solder sucking bulb or one with a vacuum pump ( Love these but expensive) or you could use some braided copper AKA solder wick and pop it off the board and replace. A lot of times when the jack is busted off it has a damaged center pin or the plastic inside is all busted off...
        Please note: I am not responsible for any harm caused to you anything discussed is just discussion. Before you try anything discussed be sure that you have the appropriate knowledge and safety gear for the job. Like with anything education and safety are first! Do not try anything @ home without it.

        Comment


          #24
          Re: 18650 lithium cell need help understanding risks

          @BUDM what brands of equipment are you using just out of curiosity?

          I got my small charger from xtar works like a champ charges well but slow... but it is compatible with the following has screw in negative terminals to adjust for sizes of the following 16340 14500 18650 18700 so it covers a range of lithium based cells.

          I am half tempted to opt for a boost charger and a decent variable power supply I've needed one for some time but the last time I had a decent amount of money to blow I opted for a techtronix scope older model but 500mhz would love to have a decent supply and the one amp charge would be nice as well... Under close supervision of course.
          Please note: I am not responsible for any harm caused to you anything discussed is just discussion. Before you try anything discussed be sure that you have the appropriate knowledge and safety gear for the job. Like with anything education and safety are first! Do not try anything @ home without it.

          Comment


            #25
            Re: 18650 lithium cell need help understanding risks

            the tablet battery likely has a protection board.
            the battery will turn back on when you charge it.
            the triton i use starts at a low current to soft start a possibly overdischarged battery.
            it has never failed to turn the protection board on.

            Comment


              #26
              Re: 18650 lithium cell need help understanding risks

              looked up the triton the other day actually seems decent for sub 200.00 piece of equipment.
              Please note: I am not responsible for any harm caused to you anything discussed is just discussion. Before you try anything discussed be sure that you have the appropriate knowledge and safety gear for the job. Like with anything education and safety are first! Do not try anything @ home without it.

              Comment


                #27
                Re: 18650 lithium cell need help understanding risks

                if you dont need the capability to do a 6s li-ion the older one can be a real bargain.
                they are backed by a company with real support too.
                one of mine had a warped panel that made the buttons act up.
                1 call got a parts kit sent and i fixed it myself in like 10 minutes.

                Comment


                  #28
                  Re: 18650 lithium cell need help understanding risks

                  Tablet update

                  Hi - Thanks for the input
                  Wasnt really going to say much about the tablet - there are quite a few tablet forums and most problems seem to be from people trying to flash them.
                  Anyway as you have asked it is an aged Kyoto TAB May as well be NONAME
                  Processor is WM8650 and Board is M010SM_2V3 dated 2011.11.03.
                  Battery is a twinpack -Has a long number beginning with LB01 that doesnt google and another PL055060P 2900mAh 3.7 voltage without load is 8.33vdc so I guess this means the pair will be a respectable 5800 mAh.
                  Wallwart multivoltage adapter I used does 9v at 1000ma.
                  Whilst initially the led was flashing red on connecting the charger when applied for longer the red led stays constant , then when fully charged goes out.
                  The battery did not feel very warm when being charged. The mains adapter I would say was at its usually temperature.
                  When the tablet was switched on the led was green.
                  I left it playing a slideshow and it ran for at least 2 hours (forgot to keep checking it ) which, whilst not great, is a good start and very acceptable for a freeby.
                  When re inserting the charger it did not do the red flashing but went straight to constant red, so perhaps the red flashing was pulsing start for a battery that had been "flat" for a while.
                  I will put it back together and see how it does with video and wifi.
                  Please upload pictures using attachment function when ask for help on the repair
                  http://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthread.php?t=39740

                  Comment


                    #29
                    Re: 18650 lithium cell need help understanding risks

                    its 2s so 8.4v at 2900mah.

                    Comment


                      #30
                      Re: 18650 lithium cell need help understanding risks

                      Got my battery pack working with the BMS issue I am thinking it is a bad thermostat that is cutting the voltage down to 12v for instance when you really heat up your drill with tons of drilling and it overheats and shuts down until it cools off like 2 seconds later I think what it does is cuts the voltage down to 12v on the drill to make it inoperable something similar to a thermistor just packaged a bit different than what I am used to ... The only worry is not having this piece in play could be dangerous so I am going to mark that battery so I know not to jam on it too much.
                      Attached Files
                      Please note: I am not responsible for any harm caused to you anything discussed is just discussion. Before you try anything discussed be sure that you have the appropriate knowledge and safety gear for the job. Like with anything education and safety are first! Do not try anything @ home without it.

                      Comment


                        #31
                        Re: 18650 lithium cell need help understanding risks

                        The little white brick underneath the middle battery is a thermostat...

                        I did a little testing with my drill put some real torque on it and the exterior plastic casing after holding the chuck on drill got mighty hot 125 degrees F so I'm thinking it may just be best to replace the thermostat rather than jumper the battery bank... To the battery output I can see there is an inherent danger not letting the pack run as it is supposed to through the board.

                        @BudM I am curious if you have ever got that picture taken?
                        Please note: I am not responsible for any harm caused to you anything discussed is just discussion. Before you try anything discussed be sure that you have the appropriate knowledge and safety gear for the job. Like with anything education and safety are first! Do not try anything @ home without it.

                        Comment


                          #32
                          Re: 18650 lithium cell need help understanding risks

                          WARNING!!!!
                          do not charge 0v cells.
                          they are damaged and may fail violently later.they grow dendrites and may later short just sitting there.and the ptc and bms wont save you.
                          when i tear down packs for cells i toss anything below 2v.
                          soa for li-ion is 2.0v-4.2v.
                          some newer cells higher.
                          Originally posted by infringer View Post
                          yeah may be oddly I was able to recharge some cells that were showing 0v 4 out of 5 of them actually one of them would not go above 1.3v and started getting warm I monitored the thing with a meter and a IR thermometer the whole time it was charging just to be safe so hours of looking at batteries is not my idea of fun lol but my rig was primitive a meter and a 5v 500ma charger hacked up with some gator clips screwed to a hunk of 2x12 the voltage held at 3.6v and it is about 9hours that has passed so I assume the cells are still good and they just fell asleep well 4 out of 5 of them. We will see I got a 18650 usb charger on order from xtar to safely top them off using the word safely loosely cause I will have to pay attention to it and make sure it doesn't overcharge the cell I will likely charge inside of an old computer case just to somewhat contain anything that may happen from topping them off but the cells look as good as new or I would not have even attempted it.

                          Finally I will say that the cell will not take a charge if it shows 5 v and does not change when your leads touch the battery's anode and cathode.

                          Do not try this I take no responsibility for anyone trying this I did this in a well contained and safe area with a fire extinguisher near by that is suited for this type of fire. Do not try it at home!

                          Comment


                            #33
                            Re: 18650 lithium cell need help understanding risks

                            yes of course after they wake up I check the voltage immediately anything above 1.5v I charged.... I read somewhere 1.5v was the magic number ... (I could be wrong here but so far so good no issues...)

                            Usually dendrites will show as the battery will discharge after a few hours but I wait a couple of days to be sure... as long as the cell is within .2v or 4.0v to 4.2v after 2-3 days of sitting in a small bowl inside a larger stainless steel bowl of water for safety. This way if it gets hot enough to melt the plastic bowl it will fall into the larger stainless steel bowl filled with water to instantly bring a cooling effect to the cell... I have read this as well and so far the information has been accurate.

                            Interesting facts that I found about temps though are:

                            Should the pressure rise further, a safety membrane bursts open at 3,450kPa (500psi) and the cell might eventually vent with flame. The thermal runaway moves lower when the battery is fully charged; for Li-cobalt this threshold is between 130–150C°C (266–302°F), nickel-manganese-cobalt (NMC) is 170–180°C (338–356°F), and manganese is 250°C (482°F). Li-phosphate enjoys similar and better temperature stabilities than manganese.

                            Obviously though thermal run away cannot be prevented in some cases so I exercise extra safety precautions because of this ...

                            UL has made it so that lithium cells in production have to pass a "nail puncture test" this test is exactly what it say they have to be safe when being punctured by a nail...

                            I was wrong in stating the battery was 0v once woken up it was at 1.8v please accept this correction but yes this battery would not rise in voltage so it is indeed bad as the voltage rise should be rather quick in the beginning within the first minute you should see a rise in voltage if you do not pull it off and recycle the cell. And as a safety I use an ir thermometer at all times or if I run out of battery I pull out the temperature meter and tape a lead on to the batteries surface.

                            Trust me safety is a grave concern for me in learning about these cells... Soldering the cells is done in intervals constantly monitoring the temperature of the cells being careful to not cause any sparks or arcs that could potentially set the batteries hydrogen off gas if there is any ablaze this is nothing for a typical person without a lot of the proper tools I will admit in my first attempts I did cause an arc on one of my packs and I jumped about 5ft back in my chair and about crapped my pants since then I am extra cautious I electrical tape leads that could be shorted. There is no such thing as too much safety when dealing with these cells this I think we all can agree on.
                            Last edited by kc8adu; 11-05-2013, 06:55 AM.
                            Please note: I am not responsible for any harm caused to you anything discussed is just discussion. Before you try anything discussed be sure that you have the appropriate knowledge and safety gear for the job. Like with anything education and safety are first! Do not try anything @ home without it.

                            Comment


                              #34
                              Re: 18650 lithium cell need help understanding risks

                              As long as the cells are within .2v not 2v could a moderator please correct the statement above to reflect this on my previous post thanks!

                              Here are some pics of the safety precautions used...

                              Also I attached some pictures of the modification to get the BMS board working if you have the proper voltages at the battery bank while I do not recommend it as a finished product it is a good way to test if something has went wrong on your board likely I suspect that in many cases it will be your thermostat which looks like a little black bead or ir sensor on lithium+ hanging on the side of your battery under a pad and for lithium standard batteries it is a white box looking thing underneath the middle battery P103 variation...

                              One thing to note some newer P103 batteries have the same cells used in lithium plus batteries which are LG based... So essentially it is a lithium+ without the fuel gauge. I like the look of the lithium+ batteries better as far as operation goes and durability I will say from my tests the p103 non lithium+ battery seems to be more durable than the P107 lithium+ battery and for the record it appears that all double pack ryobi batteries are the worst when it comes to durability an educated guess would be the heat that is causing them to fail more batteries more heat and confined space lowers the life span. I would rather walk a block and change my batteries a couple of times a day than have a battery that will last only 2/3 of the life span.

                              Anyhow just sharing my findings with everyone as I always maintain extreme measures of safety are required when dealing with these batteries people have died and have been seriously injured trying to learn about different types of energy storage technologies. Always consider the risk it is very possible to lose an eyeball or something more when dealing with these batteries if you do not adhere to safety measures even sometimes when you do.
                              Attached Files
                              Last edited by infringer; 11-03-2013, 01:32 PM. Reason: Need moderator correction on previous posting.
                              Please note: I am not responsible for any harm caused to you anything discussed is just discussion. Before you try anything discussed be sure that you have the appropriate knowledge and safety gear for the job. Like with anything education and safety are first! Do not try anything @ home without it.

                              Comment


                                #35
                                Re: 18650 lithium cell need help understanding risks

                                errr yes could you please correct that 1.3 to 1.8v man o man that could be trouble .... Going to have to start rechecking stuff a bit better before posting...

                                Starting at 0v means the capacity before being woken up which happens almost instantly after power is applied.

                                If the voltage is below 1.5 it is toast I have read somewhere and elsewhere I have read that if it is below 3v it is toast and here I have read that if it below 2v it is toast all I can share is from my trials is that if it below 1.5v it will not take and hold a charge as this is the number that I have went with there is so much conflicting information with lithium cells and this is I guess what I am trying to sort out...


                                But it would help to clarify stuff correctly when measuring and than typing so if it is below either way it is your choice on who to believe but for safety I would stick with if it is not above 3v but for my own personal testing I have found that many cells above 1.5 will take and hold a charge for well going on a week now for some of the batteries I have been monitoring the cells daily looking for drops in voltage I have only had a couple that dropped more than .2v as I have stated and any of them that have dropped are off to the recyclers.
                                Last edited by infringer; 11-03-2013, 03:54 PM. Reason: clarification...
                                Please note: I am not responsible for any harm caused to you anything discussed is just discussion. Before you try anything discussed be sure that you have the appropriate knowledge and safety gear for the job. Like with anything education and safety are first! Do not try anything @ home without it.

                                Comment


                                  #36
                                  Re: 18650 lithium cell need help understanding risks

                                  Originally posted by infringer View Post
                                  Also I attached some pictures of the modification to get the BMS board working if you have the proper voltages at the battery bank while I do not recommend it as a finished product it is a good way to test if something has went wrong on your board likely I suspect that in many cases it will be your thermostat which looks like a little black bead or ir sensor on lithium+ hanging on the side of your battery under a pad and for lithium standard batteries it is a white box looking thing underneath the middle battery P103 variation...

                                  .
                                  I repair these battery pack as well and the modification that you doing should ONLY be done as a TEST

                                  The big problem with these boards is that the mofet on the heat sinks go partly bad if you load the tool a little to much the board has to reset

                                  When you replace the mosfets on the board the board work the right way again I have three battery pack right now I have to repair all with the same problem

                                  PLEASE NOTE THAT WHEN CHANGING THE MOSFETS on these board you MUST remove the batteries from the board and take your time when do doing this not to short the battery cells
                                  Last edited by sam_sam_sam; 11-03-2013, 06:36 PM.
                                  9 PC LCD Monitor
                                  6 LCD Flat Screen TV
                                  30 Desk Top Switching Power Supply
                                  10 Battery Charger Switching Power Supply for Power Tool
                                  6 18v Lithium Battery Power Boards for Tool Battery Packs
                                  1 XBox 360 Switching Power Supply and M Board
                                  25 Servo Drives 220/460 3 Phase
                                  6 De-soldering Station Switching Power Supply 1 Power Supply
                                  1 Dell Mother Board
                                  15 Computer Power Supply
                                  1 HP Printer Supply & Control Board * lighting finished it *


                                  These two repairs where found with a ESR meter...> Temp at 50*F then at 90*F the ESR reading more than 10%

                                  1 Over Head Crane Current Sensing Board ( VFD Failure Five Years Later )
                                  2 Hem Saw Computer Stack Board

                                  All of these had CAPs POOF
                                  All of the mosfet that are taken out by bad caps

                                  Comment


                                    #37
                                    Re: 18650 lithium cell need help understanding risks

                                    Originally posted by infringer View Post
                                    Also I attached some pictures of the modification to get the BMS board working if you have the proper voltages at the battery bank while I do not recommend it as a finished product it is a good way to test if something has went wrong on your board likely I suspect that in many cases it will be your thermostat which looks like a little black bead or ir sensor on lithium+ hanging on the side of your battery under a pad and for lithium standard batteries it is a white box looking thing underneath the middle battery P103 variation...

                                    .
                                    I repair these battery pack as well and the modification that you doing should ONLY be done as a TEST

                                    The big problem with these boards is that the mofet on the heat sinks go partly bad if you load the tool a little to much the board has to reset
                                    and when push the power button again it might run a little bit and shut down again keep do this a few time

                                    When you replace the mosfets on the board the board work the right way again I have three battery pack right now I have to repair all with the same problem

                                    When the board work right if you over load the battery pack with a real heavy load it shut down until you release the power switch on the tool when you push the switch it should restart again right away unless your battery pack is real warm then it will not restart right away

                                    The Digikey part # for the mosfet is IRF1404PBF-ND....> IRF1404 or IRF1404Z I have look at both data sheet for both part # I do not any thing that different some battery packs use one or the part #
                                    Last edited by sam_sam_sam; 11-03-2013, 07:07 PM.
                                    9 PC LCD Monitor
                                    6 LCD Flat Screen TV
                                    30 Desk Top Switching Power Supply
                                    10 Battery Charger Switching Power Supply for Power Tool
                                    6 18v Lithium Battery Power Boards for Tool Battery Packs
                                    1 XBox 360 Switching Power Supply and M Board
                                    25 Servo Drives 220/460 3 Phase
                                    6 De-soldering Station Switching Power Supply 1 Power Supply
                                    1 Dell Mother Board
                                    15 Computer Power Supply
                                    1 HP Printer Supply & Control Board * lighting finished it *


                                    These two repairs where found with a ESR meter...> Temp at 50*F then at 90*F the ESR reading more than 10%

                                    1 Over Head Crane Current Sensing Board ( VFD Failure Five Years Later )
                                    2 Hem Saw Computer Stack Board

                                    All of these had CAPs POOF
                                    All of the mosfet that are taken out by bad caps

                                    Comment


                                      #38
                                      Re: 18650 lithium cell need help understanding risks

                                      Well what is happening is the output of the batteries is perfect but the output to the posts on the stem of the battery are only 12v I have two batteries like this... Explain this to me so what you are saying is that the fets are what are causing this issue I suppose it is very possible they are causing a lack of power if there is something wrong with them it is a common part the only reason I assumed the thermostat is because a trace from the thermostat looked a little bubbled up so I tried to jumper direct from the thermostat and make my own line with a wire.... Didn't work so I assumed there was an issue I suppose I could have just heated it up checked the data sheets and seen the resistance under different temps I just wanted to get stuff going this weekend in case I did not have the time during the week or next weekend...

                                      I'll order a couple of fets as there is two per pack and give them a shot I really wish there were an easier way to accomplish this without removing the cells as that is the dangerous part of it ... I wonder if there is something I could do without cutting a trace or removing the cells to accomplish this.... I know fets and voltage regulators are very sensitive to static and such but I do wonder if I could use a more sturdy replacement part if this is the case I'll have to research this a bit more before I click the buy button.


                                      Thanks for sharing your info any more info is welcomed.
                                      Please note: I am not responsible for any harm caused to you anything discussed is just discussion. Before you try anything discussed be sure that you have the appropriate knowledge and safety gear for the job. Like with anything education and safety are first! Do not try anything @ home without it.

                                      Comment


                                        #39
                                        Re: 18650 lithium cell need help understanding risks

                                        Originally posted by infringer View Post
                                        I really wish there were an easier way to accomplish this without removing the cells as that is the dangerous part of it ... I wonder if there is something I could do without cutting a trace or removing the cells to accomplish this.... .
                                        There is if you have a de-soldering station you have to heat the tabs on the board until ALL of the solder has melted and suck all solder up then VERY carefully pry the board a little to make sure that the tab is loose then go to the next one and do the same thing......>>>>>>
                                        BE VERY CARE FULL DOING THIS NOT TO SHORT THE TRACE ON THE BOARD when I was doing one these battery packs this happen to me on the first one I did

                                        This will NOT WORK if you try use a soldering wick to do this job

                                        Originally posted by infringer View Post
                                        I know fets and voltage regulators are very sensitive to static and such but I do wonder if I could use a more sturdy replacement part If this is the case I'll have to research this a bit more before I click the buy button.


                                        Thanks for sharing your info any more info is welcomed.
                                        There might be but the most imported thing is not to keep over loading your tool the three tools that will do this most is the 1/2" impact gun [the 1/4" can also be a problem if running a lot of very long screws and do a lot of them] and grinder and the saw all tool the drill can also can do this as well if you keep stalling the drill motor


                                        I hope this helps
                                        Last edited by sam_sam_sam; 11-04-2013, 08:52 PM.
                                        9 PC LCD Monitor
                                        6 LCD Flat Screen TV
                                        30 Desk Top Switching Power Supply
                                        10 Battery Charger Switching Power Supply for Power Tool
                                        6 18v Lithium Battery Power Boards for Tool Battery Packs
                                        1 XBox 360 Switching Power Supply and M Board
                                        25 Servo Drives 220/460 3 Phase
                                        6 De-soldering Station Switching Power Supply 1 Power Supply
                                        1 Dell Mother Board
                                        15 Computer Power Supply
                                        1 HP Printer Supply & Control Board * lighting finished it *


                                        These two repairs where found with a ESR meter...> Temp at 50*F then at 90*F the ESR reading more than 10%

                                        1 Over Head Crane Current Sensing Board ( VFD Failure Five Years Later )
                                        2 Hem Saw Computer Stack Board

                                        All of these had CAPs POOF
                                        All of the mosfet that are taken out by bad caps

                                        Comment


                                          #40
                                          Re: 18650 lithium cell need help understanding risks

                                          Originally posted by infringer View Post
                                          sitting in a small bowl inside a larger stainless steel bowl of water for safety. This way if it gets hot enough to melt the plastic bowl it will fall into the larger stainless steel bowl filled with water to instantly bring a cooling effect to the cell...
                                          You DO know what happens when Lithium comes into contact with water, right?


                                          Comment

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