18650 lithium cell need help understanding risks

[budm]

Re: 18650 lithium cell need help understanding risks

never mind, wrong post.

[infringer]

Re: 18650 lithium cell need help understanding risks

@ LLLlllou

No I guess I was not entirely pervy to the chemistry info of it but thanks for the heads up...

Will have to find a safer alternative I suppose than water I do recall a class 5 fire extinguisher or something along them lines was needed...

Like I say make sure you are safe but this is a perfect example of being undereducated about lithium like I said 2 weeks of reading and testing I surely do not know it all and it is the reason for my discussion to see if there is something important I am missing.

This is very important.

Are you aware of any safer alternative liquids that I could use for cooling?

From the videos I watched with lithium they add it to water and it reacts by creating hydrogen but any amount of heat is quickly disappated by the water will the same happen with one of these batteries or will it blow up ?

I thought the whole purpose of the vent was to stop pressure from being with held in the battery? so it will vent out ...

I guess if I set them in a dry cast iron pot or pan will this work or does this too have a reaction similar to say thermite....

My main goal here is learning enough not to be too dangerous lol

I have been trying fairly hard to get all of the i's dotted but I'm sure there is one or two I will miss.

Anyone else care to share what they actually do for safety with a newly charged cell until they are sure that it does not discharge do to dendrites?

I think now would be a good time to share I am glad that people are there to give pointers on me being wrong either in clarifications or measurements but please do help me out by either.

A: Correcting the mistake to make this thread more safe for others to read.
B: Providing a known solution to the said problem.

The whole purpose of this form is to share knowledge, findings, and in return get knowledge or further your understanding.

I do really appreciate the help with this that I have gotten from everyone and I hope it helps others that set down the same path a very good discussion indeed.

I do remember the potassium and water thing in science class but I don't recall a lot about lithium from science class very interesting stuff it is though.

The other neat thing is the zinc air battery I guess that one is pretty dang explosive too... If I recall they were using some of them for hearing aids or something a rather dangerous thing to have in your ear no?

UPDATE BELOW:

If the battery gets very hot, immediately remove the device from proximity to flammable materials and bring it to a non-combustible surface. If at all possible, put a disintegrating laptop or cell phone outdoors and let it burn out. If the fire occurs in an airplane, FAA tells flight attendants not to use fire extinguishers but specify water or pop (soda). Water cools the adjacent material and prevents the fire from spreading. Many research laboratories and factories also use water to put out battery fires. Allow good ventilation while the battery burns itself out. ****Li-ion contains no lithium metal and does not react with water.**** A fire with batteries containing lithium metal requires a different extinguishing method.

Source: http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/a...ns_with_li_ion

After reading this it appears my procedure is safe would this be correct in assuming that I am reading this right? It is a lithium ion cell correct or is the naming that I am reading wrong or something else wrong?

All rechargeable batteries 18650 seem to be LI-ION from what I can tell.

Please advise....

[LLLlllou]

Re: 18650 lithium cell need help understanding risks

From the videos I watched with lithium they add it to water and it reacts by creating hydrogen but any amount of heat is quickly disappated by the water will the same happen with one of these batteries or will it blow up ?

Pure metalic Lithium will explode, the lithium in a battery is not in a pure metalic state, so I doubt it would explode. Still, I wouldn't want it to come into contact with water while I'm sleeping in the next room.

I guess if I set them in a dry cast iron pot or pan will this work or does this too have a reaction similar to say thermite....

No, cast iron should be fine. Maybe put the battery in the stainless bowl, then the bowl in the cast iron pot with water in between. The battery isn't getting through the stainless bowl no matter what. The water would absorb plenty of heat and distribute it to the cast iron pot to keep it cool enough not to burn anything. Now this is all assuming a burning battery, of course if it explodes and throws burning lithium 20 feet across the room . . . well, you get the picture.

I do remember the potassium and water thing in science class but I don't recall a lot about lithium from science class very interesting stuff it is though.

Go straight down column 1 on the periodic table from Lithium to Francium, they all do naughty things in water.

The other neat thing is the zinc air battery I guess that one is pretty dang explosive too... If I recall they were using some of them for hearing aids or something a rather dangerous thing to have in your ear no?

Never heard of one exploding, but that would definitely not be the best place to have one explode.

UPDATE BELOW:

If the battery gets very hot, immediately remove the device from proximity to flammable materials and bring it to a non-combustible surface. If at all possible, put a disintegrating laptop or cell phone outdoors and let it burn out. If the fire occurs in an airplane, FAA tells flight attendants not to use fire extinguishers but specify water or pop (soda). Water cools the adjacent material and prevents the fire from spreading. Many research laboratories and factories also use water to put out battery fires. Allow good ventilation while the battery burns itself out. ****Li-ion contains no lithium metal and does not react with water.**** A fire with batteries containing lithium metal requires a different extinguishing method.

Ah, OK, so at least one source says water is OK.

Source: http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/a...ns_with_li_ion

After reading this it appears my procedure is safe would this be correct in assuming that I am reading this right? It is a lithium ion cell correct or is the naming that I am reading wrong or something else wrong?

No, you're correct, all rechargeable lithium cells are lithium ion.

All rechargeable batteries 18650 seem to be LI-ION from what I can tell.

Please advise....

[infringer]

Re: 18650 lithium cell need help understanding risks

Great thanks for the response yeah the stainless steel pot in a bigger stainless steal bowl in the stainless steel pot would be better good idea actually should contain any mishaps fairly well and put a water barrier between for extra safety why not seems ok to me I'll have to pick up some more stainless mixing bowls so the other half don't get mad when she see's batteries inside of it lol!

This post is an information gathering post so far.

I believe that a lot about lithium has been cleared up in this posting and some safety measures were discovered that can help people work a bit smarter when they are determined to play with their battery packs. I feel such information should be published a bit more to be honest to educate people on the dangers of lithium as well as the possibilities and safety precautions that they could take to ensure the highest level of safety.

Thank you all ....

I do have one more question though I do find that soldering these cells at times can be a rather painfully slow and tedious process... Does anyone have any pointers on soldering the packs? Type of solder to use? Things to do to ensure a more solid connection to the anode and cathode of the battery such as tabbing or something similar or maybe even flux.

I find that solder does stick but with enough pressure you can almost certainly always bust it off.

It appears that a pack purchased brand new seems to be spot welded or something along them lines what do you do to get a good hold please share!

[infringer]

Re: 18650 lithium cell need help understanding risks

Ok guess spot welders for battery packs seem to be the best option but you can solder them with some success.

Soldering Lithium Cells (Info I have gathered and is just for informational purpose again I or anyone else on this forum is not responsible for anything that may result in using this information as much of it is second hand knowledge. Doing anything of the sort will be done with your own risk):

- It is dangerous
- It is very easy to have cold solder joints make sure to test each joint with some pulling or tugging/twisting after joint creation.
- You should not use an iron under 40w
- Your temp should be high when soldering
- A flux pen or flux paste may help
- Roughing up the ends of the cell with some sand paper may help be sure to clean the ends after roughing with a dry cloth.
- Tin the tab and ends of the cell before attempting to join the two together wait for 1 minute between tinning the ends of the cell to keep the temps low.
- ANY TIME YOU APPLY SOLDER DO NOT HOLD IRON ON THE BATTERY FOR MORE THAN A COUPLE OF SECONDS!
- CONSTANTLY MONITOR TEMPERATURE OF THE CELL
- KEEP A STAINLESS STEEL OR CAST IRON SOUP POT NEAR BY IN CASE THE CELL STARTS GETTING TOO HOT IF IT FEELS FAIRLY HOT TO TOUCH THROW THE PACK IN YOUR STAINLESS OR CAST IRON SOUP POT AND PUT THE POT AND WAIT IT OUT UNTIL THE CELL COOLS ONCE COOL CAREFULLY REMOVE THE CELL AND RECYCLE IT!

[kc8adu]

Re: 18650 lithium cell need help understanding risks

elevated risks when buying shit brands.
basicly anything with fire in the name except surefire.
example.
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/...000mA-exploded
this came to mind this morning when a neighbor called me to let me know his new ebay cheap n nasty light turned into a pipe bomb this morning. shot the tailcap through the wall.
some brands i have seen are
trustfire
ultrafire
superfire
multiplefire
spiderfire
dynafire
fandyfire
and a few others that may come to mind later.
these all get lumped into the shit catagory since they are not real brands.
i once stumbled into a china goods website where one could buy bulk labels for all the common fire brands.
i guess that was an oversight on their part as later when i went back via bookmark it was marked forbidden.

[infringer]

Re: 18650 lithium cell need help understanding risks

I remember when I had purchased some e2 energizer batteries from china as well non lithium when I would throw them on my quick charger with a cooler the cells would get extremely hot yet they looked exactly the same as my label and after 1 charge like that I tossed them...

I believe a good majority of these incidents are rouge manufacturing practices some put forward by individuals trying to pull off a "CON" to try and steal your money. Some pulled off by corporations trying to make other corporations look bad. And some by corporations trying to cut corners and outsell the competition but it leads to failure somewhere along the line most always.

Interesting though that I have this same battery about a dozen of them brand new sitting around just waiting to explode was going to get a nice flashlight myself for these batteries but on second thought I may just eat the cost on these and stick with drill based IMR type cells as they seem to be safer than the other types of cells.

I did read somewhere that the 18650 lithium cells once you go over the 1500mah mark you do have a potential explosion factor that comes into play with these cells so might be mindful to stay within this mark for these cells although I do see sony and panasonic like to use 2000mah cells for drills that are high drain so something may have changed in the chemistry or makeup of their cells that allow for them to be a bit safer but if you will note most drills use a figure between 1300 -1500 mah why anyone would possibly need more energy storage for a flashlight is beyond me but if you need more run a couple of cells in parallel and stay safe.

I find it odd that you stumbled across this weblink and then you saved the link and visited the page again later and it was gone very strange as to why you had this happen.
It is possible that we should stay away from all of the "FIRE" brands from surefire all the way through backfire :P

I think in this day and age replica goods are rather easy to produce and their are cons made like this all the time. Money can be a very motivational thing especially when you have little of it and live in poverty like conditions. China has been known for these practices. But this is not just limited to china many of the countries on the asia pacific rim are responsible for the same thing and even other countries do these types of things believe it or not!!!

Heck about a year ago or so I don't know if you remember the dog food that was found to have plastic filler in it and killed and made a lot of pets sick and this was all top brand dog food the big names.

Just one month ago one of the biggest beef suppliers overseas was caught putting horse meat in with the beef some people may say that they eat horse meat and so on so forth but guess what their is vaccines that horses take that can cause deadly effects on humans and the health risk is huge and it is through these vaccines that they find the horse meat in the products.

Personally I think any time something like this happens the supplier should be banned from selling things in the US and if the corporation that gets the stuff from suppliers has to be held accountable as well after several strikes against them as well because it is possible that these suppliers could be working with the corporation as a fall guy to take all the heat for the corporations idea.

Same with the capacitor plague that this forum exposes very well.

There will always be a chance that no matter what you buy it may be a rip off it don't matter if the brand is well known or not! I am sure that millions upon millions of these fire brands are distributed across the world and while I do sympathize with your friend and his conditions I must say from a percentage point this type of incident is a rather isolated incident and it is a good thing. For the most part I will maintain that lithium-ion batteries are safe but it may be wise to stick with batteries of a rating of 1500mah or less possibly 2000mah in the 18650 form factor.

I would tell you to stay away from asian made batteries but the problem with that is all of them no matter what the brand come from this region as they have the highest stores of lithium that has been discovered in the world thus far... And if I remember correctly the biggest store was found in a mountain in this region. It may be safer to use a reputable name but I think labels for other brands could be made even easier than trustfire seeing as how they are "nonmetallic" it is possible that making holographic labels might thwart thieves from these types of activities but as technology progresses I don't see this as holding true forever but for a while it would work!

Stay safe people educate yourself here and beyond.