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Old 04-21-2020, 05:22 PM   #21
ChaosLegionnaire
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Default Re: New SSD hard drive in laptop computer what a difference in boot time

i use all spinning rust similar to george and ratdude except for one samsung ssd 830 pro 128gb i bought a decade ago when ssds started getting mainstream acceptance.

and the reason why i havent gone into ssds is because of the cost per gigabyte. while the points the ssd-using members have brought up are all valid, the cost per gigabyte for ssds still hasnt fallen to the point of competing with and replacing spinning rust, (REPLACE! that is the keyword here!) so it doesnt make sense for me to completely do away with spinning rust and put all my personal data on flash instead.

a quick look on amazon several months ago, shows that even the lowest grade qlc based ssd, the samsung qvo 2tb goes for US$299. an enterprise grade 2tb spinning rust disk goes for US$149. so even qlc flash is still twice the cost of enterprise grade spinning rust! the price still hasnt fallen yet to a point whereby its cheaper to replace spinning rust with flash thereby making spinning rust obsolete, so that is my point.

anyway, a few days ago, i bought more spinning rust albeit its enterprise grade, helium filled spinning rust. i bought the seagate exos x10 10tb (open box. never powered on according to the seller) on junkbay after reading that it had a very low AFR of less than 0.5% on backblaze's hd reports, one of the lowest.

i also bought the hitachi ultrastar he6 6tb (used), the next day. it was the world's first helium filled hard disk when it first came out so i decided to get one for posterity. also it seems that it was made in singapore when it first came out! so its good to have for personal reasons!

so those are my first two helium hard drives i ever got! i was also convinced of buying them after reading backblaze's hard drives reports again when they did a study of helium drives vs air-filled drives and they said that helium hard drives will have a lower failure rate given the exact same drive days and drive quantity. NOTE: in that report, it shows helium drives and air-filled drives having nearly the same failure rates but it was because they had less helium drives so thats why they showed very similar failure rates.

Sources: Backblaze - Hard Drive Data and Stats
Backblaze - The Helium Factor and Hard Drive Failure Rates
Backblaze - HGST 8TB Drives – Helium Makes Them Fly

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Old 04-21-2020, 06:00 PM   #22
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Default Re: New SSD hard drive in laptop computer what a difference in boot time

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CG: Yeah, the noises are fun.
"Fun" wasn't the word that came to mind, at the time! <frown>

I had slipped the laptop under a dresser so it was out of sight, out of mind. And, as I said, it was still performing its intended function(s) so never hada reason to "suspect it".

Purely by chance, the room was very quiet and I happened to be nearby (accessing one of the lowest drawers in that dresser) when I first noticed the sound.

Once I realized what it must be, I was further confused by the fact that the machine was still doing what it needed to do (for me). Maybe it's something ELSE??

Quote:
I do like keeping spares, except for drives. You wait a year, and you get a much bigger disk. So it becomes an upgrade too.
I just don't want to have to drop everything when something shits the bed. E.g., if a keyboard "loses a (decoder) row", I just want to swap it out and worry about cleaning it, later. Ditto if a mouse wheel starts misbehaving. (I keep a dozen identical mice, keyboards, etc. so I never "feel" the difference)

And, of course, if my other half has an issue, I don't want her breathing down my neck EXPECTING an instantaneous repair -- just swap it out!

Disks are a problem because waiting to buy gets you more storage per unit cost -- so, no rush to buy spares. I move smaller drives to archival roles. E.g., I have a pair of (master + backup) 250G drives on which I store golden master VMDKs. When these fill, I'll look for a pair of 500G drives to transfer their contents and let the 250's be used to archive some "smaller collection" (like "sound effects").
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Old 04-21-2020, 06:13 PM   #23
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Default Re: New SSD hard drive in laptop computer what a difference in boot time

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and the reason why i havent gone into ssds is because of the cost per gigabyte.
You also have to look at how you are using that media.

Do I really care if loading an app takes 5 seconds or 0.5 seconds? Esp if I load it ONCE and leave it running all day long??! Most of my boot time is spent waiting for HBAs to settle, the DHCP client to time out, memory tests, etc. And, I only have to incur those waits when I reboot the machine(s).

Or, accessing a document that isn't currently open -- that you need/want. Even my larger documents take very little time to read from disk; most of the time spent waiting is for the CPU to build the internal representation of the document -- resolve cross references, access other "objects", etc.

E.g., my multimedia authoring workstation has terabytes of audio/video templates. Which one(s) do I need to load "instantly"?? How much productivity will I gain if ALL of them can load instantly -- but I only use one for a particular project? A second or two?

The only use that an SSD would significantly benefit me would be "make world" on one of my UN*X boxen. But, I rarely do that. Building a new kernel (which is something that I typically have to do when bringing a new machine or I/O online) takes more time to edit the configuration file (that drives the kernel build) than the actual make(9)!

MEMORY is where you win as the OS will cache the disk accesses and make any second pass over them that much faster -- as well as letting the applications be sloppier (trade memory for performance).
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Old 04-22-2020, 05:51 PM   #24
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Default Re: New SSD hard drive in laptop computer what a difference in boot time

Ive had much better luck buying used SSDs off ebay then used harddrives, of course being thrown around by the mail carriers the hard disks are much more sensitive. My only SSD issue was my Crucial M4 bought new in 2013 didn't get recognized one day in bios, however there was a firmware bug keeping it from doing so and I finally got the new firmware on it and its still working great to this day.
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Old 04-22-2020, 06:07 PM   #25
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Default Re: New SSD hard drive in laptop computer what a difference in boot time

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Ive had much better luck buying used SSDs off ebay then used harddrives, of course being thrown around by the mail carriers the hard disks are much more sensitive. My only SSD issue was my Crucial M4 bought new in 2013 didn't get recognized one day in bios, however there was a firmware bug keeping it from doing so and I finally got the new firmware on it and its still working great to this day.
X2, my oldest SSD is a circa 2011 Samsung 830 and none have failed. Anything in my "main" systems is a "reputable major brand" (my main Laptop is running a Samsung and my main desktop a Crucial), though I do have a couple "off brand" SSDs in secondary/test systems and haven't had any failures with those either (though performance is often only so-so for an SSD but still much faster than an HDD, and many of these systems are older and only support SATA2 and are often limited by bus speed anyhow).

The same can't be said for HDDs, all the failures of "recent" drives have been Seagates (most in the "infamous" 7200.7-7200.11 series), and one ancient 20+ year old 20GB IDE Western Digital that finally bit the dust.

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Old 04-22-2020, 06:40 PM   #26
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Default Re: New SSD hard drive in laptop computer what a difference in boot time

The only SSD of mine that I had fail was THIS ONE a last year. I've had a few client machines come in with dead SSD's, but it's not been an excessive quantity. I still use spinners where it counts for critical data, mainly my NAS. Unlike a SSD, data recovery is far more achievable in the event of a failure.....when a SSD goes, it's gone.
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Old 04-22-2020, 08:22 PM   #27
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Default Re: New SSD hard drive in laptop computer what a difference in boot time

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didn't get recognized one day in bios, however there was a firmware bug keeping it from doing so and I finally got the new firmware on it
How did you get new firmware on something not recognized?

I have a Lite-On LCT-256M3S-41 which isn't detected

Inside at U12 is a Winbond 25Q80BVNIG, a 1MB chip

But Dell's LCT-256M3S-VRDD_ZPE.exe contains 1.BIN of 256KB

And the DOS stuff out of the Exe just says no disk detected
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Old 04-22-2020, 08:39 PM   #28
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Default Re: New SSD hard drive in laptop computer what a difference in boot time

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How did you get new firmware on something not recognized?

I have a Lite-On LCT-256M3S-41 which isn't detected

Inside at U12 is a Winbond 25Q80BVNIG, a 1MB chip

But Dell's LCT-256M3S-VRDD_ZPE.exe contains 1.BIN of 256KB

And the DOS stuff out of the Exe just says no disk detected
I had to do multiple power cycles and finally got lucky, the bug this drive had is explained here. http://www.yoonhuh.com/blog/fake-dea...rucial-m4-ssd/
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Old 04-22-2020, 08:48 PM   #29
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Default Re: New SSD hard drive in laptop computer what a difference in boot time

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I had to do multiple power cycles and finally got lucky, the bug this drive had is explained here. http://www.yoonhuh.com/blog/fake-dea...rucial-m4-ssd/
Thanks

I read something similar for the Lite-On and tried a couple of 20 minute efforts, but unfortunately didn't get lucky

FWIW, the Lite-On's label says F/W SRDB
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Old 04-22-2020, 11:38 PM   #30
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Default Re: New SSD hard drive in laptop computer what a difference in boot time

CL: Yeah, you do have to look at the application. If I had a desktop, I'd put an ssd as the system drive and storage would be spinning platters. It's true, you just can't beat the price. But for what you would pay for SSD drive, you could easily save in CPU/board upgrades that just aren't needed also.

One thing no one has mentioned thus far is that SSDs are great for laptop battery savings. Spinning platters take a LOT more power to run. I have two SSDs in my laptop, and it's still less power than one spinner.

CG: Hell yes I care if it takes 5 seconds to load. I turn off all the animations, effects, etc, because I want it everything to pop quick, with no delay. Perhaps I just don't have much patience. But generally, the SSD will improve the speed of application run also, there aren't too many apps I run that don't hit the disk at all. If you compile anything large, the difference is huge.
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Old 04-23-2020, 02:13 AM   #31
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Default Re: New SSD hard drive in laptop computer what a difference in boot time

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CG: Hell yes I care if it takes 5 seconds to load. I turn off all the animations, effects, etc, because I want it everything to pop quick, with no delay. Perhaps I just don't have much patience. But generally, the SSD will improve the speed of application run also, there aren't too many apps I run that don't hit the disk at all.
Then activities that are inherently SLOW must drive you bats! Ripping a CD/DVD, 3D printing... ANYTHING (!), laser cutting, downloading/installing "updates", etc. :> Over the years, I've found it wiser to adjust work habits to cope with problems that exceed the resources available than to HOPE to enhance the resources to a point where your work habits can be completely unconstrained. If you're the type that waits for X instead of switching your attention to Y, then you'll inevitably find yourself waiting when you could be working!

[If someone else is paying your salary, that might be acceptable. If you're your own boss, time spent waiting is time that could have been spent NOT WORKING]

I load apps once and then leave them open. I tend to have just a few apps open:
  • the "primary" app for the workstation's purpose (CAD, EDA, DTP, an IDE, audio/video authoring, etc.)
  • Acrobat (cuz there's always some document that needs to be referenced)
  • some number of TELNET sessions to remote hosts
  • an X server or two
  • a VM or two
(those last two allow me to keep an eye on work that other machines are doing for me so I don't have to sit and wait in front of each of them). With 96G of RAM, I don't have to worry about paging -- the apps load themselves and then the disk(s) stay inoperative (until I "Save").

By far, the meatware is the slowest part of the process!

Quote:
If you compile anything large, the difference is huge.
If I'm doing something truly expensive (make world, rendering 3D animations, autorouting a PCB, etc.) the RAM renders the disk largely inconsequential. And, the process is so compute intensive that I'm not going to even bother sitting in front of the machine waiting for a result (hence the beauty of being able to start working on another workstation).

[Waiting is always a losing proposition as there will always be larger problems to solve that, eventually, exceed your patience. And, upgrading a machine each time your problem domain expands past your level of patience ends up wasting lots of time reinstalling software to exploit that faster hardware... which, in short order, will be just as "slow" as the last set of hardware! I spend just as much time waiting for my machines to finish their work, now, as I did 40 years ago -- because the problems I work on have steadily increased in complexity to consume the resources presently available]
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Old 04-23-2020, 11:19 PM   #32
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Default Re: New SSD hard drive in laptop computer what a difference in boot time

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3d printing
...
If you're the type that waits for X instead of switching your attention to Y, then you'll inevitably find yourself waiting when you could be working!
...
With 96G of RAM, I don't have to worry about paging -- the apps load themselves and then the disk(s) stay inoperative (until I "Save").
Heh, my list usually has around 20 items that I'm working on. Most are in a wait state (bah!), I make the list so I don't forget them.

As for 3d printing, I do everything I can to speed it up including running klipper and contributing to it when I can:
https://github.com/KevinOConnor/klip...a77a4b3ad6a8d1
If I'm in a hurry, I can run my printer up to 120mm/sec. I don't often do it, but sometimes I do. The printer is only spec'd to run maybe 40mm/sec.

I must say, I was taken aback at 96G ram. My lappy, running maxed out at 8g is puny in comparision. Did some research, some more modern laptops can run 32G. Might be time for an upgrade soon... Certainly if you run almost 100G ram, you can nearly run everything from ram, and never close anything. My 8G lappy needs a fast disk. But yes, when I'm at my computer, I want it snappy.
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Old 04-24-2020, 05:27 PM   #33
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Default Re: New SSD hard drive in laptop computer what a difference in boot time

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As for 3d printing, I do everything I can to speed it up including running klipper and contributing to it when I can:
https://github.com/KevinOConnor/klip...a77a4b3ad6a8d1
If I'm in a hurry, I can run my printer up to 120mm/sec. I don't often do it, but sometimes I do. The printer is only spec'd to run maybe 40mm/sec.
My approach would be to simply "move on" -- to some other project -- and come back to the print hours/days/weeks later to see how it went.

Quote:
I must say, I was taken aback at 96G ram. My lappy, running maxed out at 8g is puny in comparision. Did some research, some more modern laptops can run 32G. Might be time for an upgrade soon...
I think ~8G is fairly typical for most laptops. I don't do any "serious" work on laptops because they are just too resource-constrained (small screens, limited peripherals, etc.).

I use mine when I visit with colleagues ("show and tell") and am really only concerned that I have the right tools installed to be able to demonstrate whatever "toys" I want to show off. Expecting my host to have the tools that I need is presumptuous so I bring my own.

Quote:
Certainly if you run almost 100G ram, you can nearly run everything from ram, and never close anything. My 8G lappy needs a fast disk. But yes, when I'm at my computer, I want it snappy.
I want my computers to be "snappy", as well! But, their problem lies in the chair adjacent to the keyboard...
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Old 05-05-2020, 12:10 PM   #34
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Default Re: New SSD hard drive in laptop computer what a difference in boot time

Upgraded my personal home HP Pavilion G72 laptop to a 1TB Samsung 860 QVO with Win 10 Pro from Win 7 Pro and the original 320 GB hard drive. It is maxed out at 8 GB of RAM.

Boot time is now 13 to 16 seconds to login in screen Battery now allows 4 to 6 hours run. Used mostly for email, Internet and RealFlight 7
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Old 05-06-2020, 08:50 PM   #35
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Default Re: New SSD hard drive in laptop computer what a difference in boot time

afa laptops go, I bought a Lenovo Flex 6-14 (AMD version) off my sister for $400 (originally ~$800). She hated it, she's always a mac fan, so she got a new macbook. Was/is in SUPERB condition.

Earlier that year, I bought a SSD for a customer and they accidentally gave me a single pack of adata 2xDDR4 2666 8gbx2. Worth about $80. So I kept them.

Anyways, once I got it, I opened it up and despite what i've researched it, the two main versions have some very big differences. The intel one has one one memory slot, and a full 2280 nvme slot, and a option for a fan for discrete graphics.

the amd (Ryzen 2500U) one, which I didn't run across in my research, has two slots for memory, a 2242 nvme slot, and no space for discrete fans. The biggest pain in the ass thing is IT HAD A SILKSCREEN FOR 2280, with a hole for the 2280 size that wasn't there. But the mount for the 2242 in the middle of it.

I got a Samsung 970 evo 500gb and used a 3M VHB to keep the SSD down insulated over the 2242 screw. Used the "free" memory from newegg to get it up to 16gb, win10 home fresh install.

Touchscreen, 2-in-1 foldable tablet (though I don't use it in that mode)

very fast, but does heat up quickly, even after rethermaling the cpu with AS5 so fan is not as loud

eventually replaced the broadcom nic with atheros, both still had problems going out of hibernate, with the nic stopping responding. Got an intel 7265 and had the same problem. Once I found out about the "allow the computer to turn off this device to save power". So far it seems to be working out
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Old 05-06-2020, 09:33 PM   #36
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Default Re: New SSD hard drive in laptop computer what a difference in boot time

I love the flex series they are a great bargain 2 in 1. I bought the Lenovo FLEX 14API from office depot back in september, it has the ryzen 5 3500u. what I find interesting is yours has two ram slots, mine only has 1 so 4gb soldered and 4gb expandable, so it is dual channel. however it does have two fans and with the heatpipe going to each side of the unit so one step forward one step back. I added a pic of someone else tearing my model apart maybe the 2nd fan took away room for the second ram slot. My Unit came with the 256gb samsung 981 which I think is a rebaged 970 evo its really fast!
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Old 05-07-2020, 01:26 AM   #37
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Default Re: New SSD hard drive in laptop computer what a difference in boot time

ugh soldered ram sucks (as well as flash). One chip going bad and you have a brick (unless you have a warranty, or the skill to replace those chips. Better yet, if you have the skill and equipment to do that, might as well replace them with 8gb chips

why the f does it need two fans? the 3500U has the same TDP as the 2500U (15w)? Mine runs hot with games but other than that it keeps under 70c (usually 50 during intensive processing without gaming GPU usage).

One of the best laptops i've ever had. I use virtualization to get c# 2008 in win7 to work on an app i'm developing for fun. Though I heard 2012+ has the ability to compile 32 or 64 bit, so I might go with that in native w10

edit: the only thing I DISLIKE about this (which I didn't care about till now). Is there is no webcam. Has an optical light sensor where the webcam would likely be

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Old 05-07-2020, 04:04 AM   #38
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Default Re: New SSD hard drive in laptop computer what a difference in boot time

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ugh soldered ram sucks (as well as flash). One chip going bad and you have a brick (unless you have a warranty, or the skill to replace those chips. Better yet, if you have the skill and equipment to do that, might as well replace them with 8gb chips
Of course, the obvious (conspiracy theorist or not) reason is that it "fixes" the capabilities of the product, forcing an upgrade if you want more (for the same reason some processors can't be overclocked).

But, it also lowers manufacturing cost (every part has a direct material cost and a direct labor cost). It also gives the designer more flexibility in how to physically arrange components (no need to make those non-FRUs "accessible"). And, it also lets the "programmer" code to a known set of conditions (e.g., the memory MUST be present and of a particular size/configuration, else the board is broken!) Finally, it enhances reliability, to some degree (soldered connections don't fail like friction ones do -- connectors are the bane of designers!). How is the manufacturer supposed to handle a case where the user has exceeded the specified number of insertion cycles for the SODIMM connectors "during the warranty period"?

[It can also be used to discourage counterfeiting by "hard-coding" some aspect of those particular components into the design. So, if you change the hardware, you have to invest time sorting out why the firmware isn't working as expected]

I don't allow for "(hardware) field upgrades" in any of the products I've designed. And, even if you manually modify the boards, there's no guarantee that the changes you've made will be usable (e.g., if the firmware only recognizes a certain set of resources, changing or enhancing them is a futile effort; all you can do is BREAK the damn thing!).
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Old 05-07-2020, 12:16 PM   #39
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Default Re: New SSD hard drive in laptop computer what a difference in boot time

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Of course, the obvious (conspiracy theorist or not) reason is that it "fixes" the capabilities of the product, forcing an upgrade if you want more (for the same reason some processors can't be overclocked).
Personally, with computers, which are mostly mobile these days, they don't have to design obsolescence in, they break from physcial shock. That said, I don't know who prefers their phone 1mm slimmer (except for phone reviewers, omg a 2mm bezel, that's so 2016!) instead of having a more physically sturdy device.

Though an argument could be made that these super slim phones are planned obsolescence.
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Old 05-07-2020, 03:08 PM   #40
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Default Re: New SSD hard drive in laptop computer what a difference in boot time

I had an ADATA Su850 that i bought for 20$. the best 20$ i'v ever spent. Blazing fast and never had issues with booting or whatever. HDD era is gone
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