Making your own Lithium cells.

[Th3_uN1Qu3]

Well, it turns out that Lithium is easy to recycle from old batteries, and it's also a fairly benign chemical reaction involving just water, which doesn't put out noxious chemicals nor heat. Well, that is when the Lithium doesn't spontaneously combust on contact with water, but we all like a little fireworks, don't we?

So. I've been succesful at separating the Lithium and confirmed it is actually active by whipping up a small cell using copper and aluminium electrodes just like the cells I dismantled.

I'm thinking of making LiFePO4 cells though, as copper is expensive, and the iron-based chemistry is a lot safer, even if it's a bit lower energy density. Not catching fire when poked is a good thing.

[sam_sam_sam]

Re: Making your own Lithium cells.

Okay just how would do this with out having fire works and it catching everything on fire in it path

[Th3_uN1Qu3]

Re: Making your own Lithium cells.

Sadly my detailed post just got lost but I will publish a video shortly. Basically if the cell is completely discharged before disassembly, the likelihood of fire is zero. I had a battery with two bad cells (puffed up) and a good one. The bad cells reacted softly, while the good one caught on fire when exposed to water. Nothing serious though, I just had to cut it into smaller strips before throwing them in the jar full of water than I did with the bad ones.

[eccerr0r]

Re: Making your own Lithium cells.

uh putting lithium in water WILL produce heat... though if you have a lot of it, it will be dulled out due to the heat capacity of water.

However now getting the lithium *out* of the water is cost intensive. Moreso if you use excess water to cut down on heat.

You'll also be wasting the gas that comes out btw. That too should be recycled.

[Th3_uN1Qu3]

Re: Making your own Lithium cells.

I found it easy to get out - the reaction produces aqueous Lithium Hydroxide, which settles nicely at the bottom after a few hours. The cells also contain other stuff mixed in with the Lithium, it's carbon and a small amount of cobalt, hence what settles at the bottom is a charcoal looking powder. This can be reused as electrolyte in the same form without further processing.

[eccerr0r]

Re: Making your own Lithium cells.

Check your chemistry before posting crap.
Hint: LiOH is similar to NaOH and KOH and you know this because of the periodic table.

And BTW, now TRY to get lithium *METAL* from the precipitate/aqueous solution. Let's see how much energy you need to get THIS done.

-- also --

Lithium batteries go up in flame not because of lithium, else LiFePO4 batteries would also go up in flame. To an extent they will also get hot, however the problem is that regular lithium ion batteries use a flammable, organic electrolyte.

-- and --

So. I've been succesful at separating the Lithium and confirmed it is actually active by whipping up a small cell using copper and aluminium electrodes just like the cells I dismantled.

You just made a copper aluminum battery, not lithium ion.

[Th3_uN1Qu3]

Re: Making your own Lithium cells.

My point is you don't need Lithium METAL to produce batteries. It is always mixed in with carbon or a polymer and other metals, then applied in a thin layer to a copper foil. A thin plastic separator goes on top of that and then there's an aluminium foil. They make a long strip of this then sandwich or roll it up to produce cells of various shapes and sizes.

The idea came from a NileRed video and I did check the chemistry with another source and it says the same thing. Maybe they are both wrong? Either way, I made a small cell and it took a charge, i'll make a bigger one and see what gives.

however the problem is that regular lithium ion batteries use a flammable, organic electrolyte.

-- and --

You just made a copper aluminum battery, not lithium ion.

Hmm. Maybe I should stick to the original idea of using the Lithium Hydroxide obtained in this way to make dope, lol.

[eccerr0r]

Re: Making your own Lithium cells.

See above post #6.

All of that BS about using aqueous lithium is just using lithium as an electrolyte. You can do cheaper by using sodium electrolyte!!! And doing away with aluminum. Aluminum is also one of those evil metals to separate, hence it is also an expensive metal to use!

Unfortunately YES YOU DO need lithium metal to get the energy density of lithium batteries.

[Th3_uN1Qu3]

Re: Making your own Lithium cells.

Copper is like an order of magnitude more expensive than aluminium, but indeed, zinc and steel are significantly cheaper. It's worth exploring further if I can do away with aluminium also.

[eccerr0r]

Re: Making your own Lithium cells.

You will end up finding out:

- You can't charge batteries made out of aluminum electrodes without some esoteric electrolyte or going through Hall-Héroult again.
- Aluminum is cheap only because it's everywhere. But it's *MUCH* more energy intensive to separate.
- Whatever energy density you'll get out of something without lithium will be lower than lithium, with the exception of aluminum as aluminum can donate more electrons per unit mass.
- Copper sucks as an electrode. They're using it as an electrode not as redox electrode, but rather as a current collector.
- zinc sucks an electrode likewise, and sucks as a current collector
- iron is awful as an electrode because redox with it are difficult to reverse.

Not saying that it's impossible to use aluminum, but aluminum would be a worldchanger if you can get it to recharge without Hall-Héroult.

CHECK YOUR CHEMISTRY.

[Th3_uN1Qu3]

Re: Making your own Lithium cells.

So, today I learned that making batteries is going to be more expensive than making some sought-after illegal substances... Crap. I wanted to be the good guy.

[eccerr0r]

Re: Making your own Lithium cells.

I am not trying to shoot you down, just shooting down problems that have already been encountered. Battery technology has gone a long way. To be honest the cheapest rechargeable battery people can make at home is...

LEAD ACID

This can be easily made at home and be rechargeable. And melting lead to purify/recast spent plates is within the world of possibility.

Not so much with lithium.

BTW copper and zinc are crappy electrodes much like iron due to reversibility, plus the fact per unit weight they can donate one or two electrons. In fact the reason why zinc was used in primary cells since forever is because it's cheap and can consistently give up those two electrons... but they're primary cells for a reason...

[Th3_uN1Qu3]

Re: Making your own Lithium cells.

I do like wet electrolyte lead-acid cells but it's a lot more cost-effective for me to just carry them to the recycling center.

[eccerr0r]

Re: Making your own Lithium cells.

so even lead acid is out of your reach for making new cells... now what does that tell you about batteries of other chemistries...

Lead acid was the first readily manufactureable secondary batteries out there because it's easy to make than other rechargeable battery chemistries. Perhaps, next one should try out making Nickel-cadmium cells, those too should be fairly easy to make.

[eccerr0r]

Re: Making your own Lithium cells.

Hmm. Maybe I should stick to the original idea of using the Lithium Hydroxide obtained in this way to make dope, lol.

I don't know much about organic chemistry but recall making some hallucinogenics requires a reduction step, and thus requires... guess what... lithium metal to reduce some compound. Hence people buying lithium batteries as part of materials to make drugs since they contain metallic lithium.

[Th3_uN1Qu3]

Re: Making your own Lithium cells.

Well I can make lead-acid cells easily, it's just that they are so cheap it is not worth it. Nickel-cadmium sounds like a better idea, as the power density is a bit higher and despite the memory effect they have a fairly long lifespan.

[Th3_uN1Qu3]

Re: Making your own Lithium cells.

I don't know much about organic chemistry but recall making some hallucinogenics requires a reduction step, and thus requires... guess what... lithium metal to reduce some compound.

Stimulants. I don't know of hallucinogenics that involve Lithium, besides, morning glory seeds are 25 cents a pack in the gardening section, lol. And yes, they use primary Lithium batteries for making dope, my bad. Primary batteries are the non-rechargeable ones like CR2032s and AA replacements.

They recently added 9V Lithium batteries at my local superstore and they're great, If a bit pricy. But I've seen them sold at half price for a week or so.

[eccerr0r]

Re: Making your own Lithium cells.

Never had any recreational compounds in my body, nor interest to make them, so no idea... just the chemistry is interesting.

Not sure which are the best but I suspect you should look for mWh for the most amount of lithium for cost. Charged lithium ion cells theoretically can also be used, though getting around the flammability of the electrolyte needs to be worked around.

High capacity lead acid batteries are still kind of expensive IMHO and they wear out, and lead battery manufacturers are paying for dead batteries because it's cheaper to recycle than to extract from ore. Dunno if I could process new plates it would be great to have a way to store electricity and when they wear out, can reprocess them again and again. Not sure if lithium chemistries are feasible.

[Th3_uN1Qu3]

Re: Making your own Lithium cells.

Thing is, lead acid usually gets replaced when it's completely dead and the plates are so warped desulfating is not feasible, so a complete rebuild would be needed.

If I have to make batteries from scratch i'll want something with higher energy density than lead, so Nicad sounds like what I would want to try instead.

[eccerr0r]

Re: Making your own Lithium cells.

There's a reason why lead acid was first.

Also have fun finding/purifying cadmium. Easier than making hydrides but cadmium is more toxic than lead, if not just for the expense of nickel.