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Old 07-04-2022, 11:17 AM   #1
4th3m
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Default P4C800 Deluxe broken cap

Hello to all, first af all thank you for the existence of this forum, I discovered it only 2 days ago.

I have a question regarding a used p4c800 mainboard I bought few days ago for a retro P4 project that I'm doing.

My system is: p4c800 deluxe, p4 prescott 3.2ghz, Corsair xms twinx platinum series 2-3-3-6, saphire HD3850 agp with modified bios and pencil mod, verbatim ssd 120gb, Audigy 4 sb0610, 650w corsair PSU and a Corsair Spec Delta case.

My previous motherboard was an Asrock p4i65g, not very good in overclocking but I managed to oc the cpu to 3.73ghz with 5:4 multiplier for RAM.

The p4c800 deluxe board had tons of dust that I carefully cleaned out with isopropyl alcohol and comes with 2 smd capacitors off.

My question is if you tkink it's safe to plug in and power, I want to be sure before frying some stuff, it takes 2 years to find all the components for this system.

I resoldered the 2 smd capacitors as good as i can with a regular esd safe iron ( see photos below of the board and the area involved ), I'm concerned about the smd located in the backside of the mainboard under the 875p chipset.

I also populated an empty area with a solid state capacitor ( the red one ),
same volts tolerance half the capacitance, I've seen that is a vmem capacitor.

Waiting for your answers, best regards.
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File Type: jpg IMG_20220630_173236.jpg (1.09 MB, 28 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_20220702_201418.jpg (633.4 KB, 23 views)
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File Type: jpg IMG_20220702_202435.jpg (528.0 KB, 30 views)
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Old 07-05-2022, 03:33 AM   #2
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Default Re: P4C800 Deluxe broken cap

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4th3m View Post
Hello to all, first af all thank you for the existence of this forum, I discovered it only 2 days ago.
lol where the hell have u been?! this forum has been around for decades since 2003! so im not sure where u've been... vogons? lol!

welcome to bcn anyway! ciao!
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4th3m View Post
The p4c800 deluxe board comes with 2 smd capacitors off.
what about the other one? the pics u uploaded only show one cap circled. where is the other that came off?
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4th3m View Post
My question is if you tkink it's safe to plug in and power, I want to be sure before frying some stuff, it takes 2 years to find all the components for this system.

I resoldered the 2 smd capacitors as good as i can with a regular esd safe iron ( see photos below of the board and the area involved ), I'm concerned about the smd located in the backside of the mainboard under the 875p chipset.
for those brown/tan smd mlcc caps, i can only tell u that if they are physically damaged like broken, chipped or cracked in any other way, they tend to go short. some of the horror stories here include shorted mlcc caps creating a crater on the motherboard and u can see all the exposed copper inside the motherboard after that.

so if the board was poorly packed, shipped and arrived at your door damaged, inspect the board carefully for any damaged broken, cracked, chipped smd mlcc caps like those. usually, these caps are used for filtering high frequency noise on the power rails or for decoupling of the clock frequency signal and boards typically have more of them than they need, so one or two removed wont cause any problems. worst, the computer just fails to post without them unless u replace them. at best, the loss of one or two mlccs on the 875p nbmch chipset just decreases the maximum overclock of the fsb and memory.

if u are fearful of more damaged mlcc caps making a crater on the board and ruining a board worth €90+ on ebay, u can try using a good quality low power psu with WORKING short circuit protection instead of that 650w corsair psu. 250-300w should be enough to power on that system. also try using a cheap low power agp or pci video card to avoid frying that sapphire 3850 agp in case shit happens as its also quite a valuable card worth about €80-150 on ebay now.

the low power psu will trip sooner and will prevent a high power high current short circuit from burning a crater through the board if anything shorts. that is all i know about trying to power on unknown condition hardware to avoid BBQ-ing anything.
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Old 07-05-2022, 09:23 AM   #3
4th3m
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Default Re: P4C800 Deluxe broken cap

Hello, thanks man for your complete answer,

I was wandering around with VOGONS, Phils Computerlab, Retro Hardware, Druaga1, Majorgeeks, Linus Techtips and Gamer Nexus, I don't know why I didn't came across this site.

Anyway thanks for your Happy welcome.

Today I found the courage to power it on , the first boot attempt was done with a weak setup, to prevent any damage: ati 3drage II+ PCI and 1 slot of ram, no audio card, no sata plugged.

The first attempt was anything than good, no beeps sound. So i start the troubleshooting procedure, changed ram, changed the processor with a prescott 3.00ghz and then it powers on with succesful POST. It seems to cause problem with the processor I installed, a p4 3.2ghz SL7PN (a particular revision with higher t-junction of 73.2C° ), late 2004 release.

I think it's a BIOS problem with the microcode missing for that CPU, so I just updated it to the 1019 version ( previously installed was 1014 ) with Asus update software under windows environment, now it works like a charm.

As soon as I swap the processor again I'll keep you updated.
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Old 07-05-2022, 09:35 AM   #4
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Default Re: P4C800 Deluxe broken cap

Sorry for the double-answer, I missed some details.

The other smd cap missing was near the Speech POST reporter chip, but I managed to resolder another one with success ( much better solder than the other one you've seen in the photos ). I checked all the motherboard and there seems to be no other damage apart from the junk I already cleaned out.

Luckyly there was no blown-out capacitors, even if I read from other posts in this forum, that the capacitors in this board are far from good-quality ones.

I think this board was used for a short time, then forgotten in a dusty garage with other cards smashed over it.

I also checked all the capacitors resistance and they all reveals to be good with all the same results compared to each other. ( so lucky! )

Thanks again, sorry for the double-post.
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Old 07-06-2022, 02:05 AM   #5
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Default Re: P4C800 Deluxe broken cap

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4th3m View Post
The first attempt was anything than good, no beeps sound. So i start the troubleshooting procedure, changed ram, changed the processor with a prescott 3.00ghz and then it powers on with succesful POST. It seems to cause problem with the processor I installed, a p4 3.2ghz SL7PN (a particular revision with higher t-junction of 73.2C° ), late 2004 release.

I think it's a BIOS problem with the microcode missing for that CPU, so I just updated it to the 1019 version ( previously installed was 1014 ) with Asus update software under windows environment, now it works like a charm.
yes, good that u figured out the problem and got it working. looking at the asus cpu support website for this board: Asus P4C800 Deluxe - Support the p4 prescott 3.2 ghz is only supported by bios revision 1017 or later so updating the bios to the latest revision may be necessary to get the board to recognise the faster cpu.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4th3m View Post
Luckyly there was no blown-out capacitors, even if I read from other posts in this forum, that the capacitors in this board are far from good-quality ones.

I also checked all the capacitors resistance and they all reveals to be good with all the same results compared to each other. ( so lucky! )
yeah, asus often uses 1000µF 6.3v ost rlp caps all over the board for general filtering and 1500µF 6.3v ost rlx or rlz caps by the cpu for cpu vrm output filtering. these often fail silently without any visible signs of bloating. therefore, u wont know if the caps are bad unless u desolder them and measure their specs using an esr or lcr meter.

so if u are feeling more courageous and confident of your computer technician skillz, u can try replacing some or all of the ost caps on the board if u want to use the board for a long time and make it last a long time too.

the 1000µF 6.3v ost rlp can be replaced with panasonic fr caps of the same specs and size (make sure the diameter of 8mm matches!). the ost rlx and rlz by the cpu can also be replaced with panasonic fr caps of the same specs and size.

since it looks like u're into overclocking, u can replace the rlx and rlz by the cpu with polymer caps also. panasonic oscon sepc 820µF 2.5v, chemicon psc 820µF 2.5v or nichicon fpcap L8 series 820µF 2.5v can be used as replacements.

u need a soldering iron of at least 80w to solder and desolder the caps by the cpu because there is a lot of copper in that area. if the wattage is inadequate, the solder wont melt but u'll just be overheating the board, damaging it instead.

another very important thing is that because this is an asus motherboard, asus has the cap polarity silkscreen markings on the pcb reversed. for asus boards, the shaded side is POSITIVE(+). normally, the shaded side is negative which is what is marked on the caps. but this shouldnt be an issue for you since u added the red polymer cap by the dimm slots fine with the right polarity orientation.

i also have this board too btw albeit its the non-deluxe version without the promise raid controller and 1394 firewire. my thread recapping my board is here. its from waaay back in 2013 when i first joined and was still a nub. lol!
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Old 07-06-2022, 03:36 AM   #6
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Default Re: P4C800 Deluxe broken cap

Hi, thanks for your suggestion.

Yes I noticed that the polarity was inverted, I have a good equipment, ESD safe iron station, max 500c°, so i think I'll do the recap as soon as I can.

Yesterday I made some overclock, the CPU tolerate only 1.6v from BIOS, if I go higher the system don't POST, I think it's related to that kind of prescott CPU, anyway I don't want to go with a northwood .

Memory can only go up to 240mhz fsb at 1:1 with 3-4-4-8 timings and 2.85v, but it seems ddr500 pc4000 are nowhere to be found so I think I will keep them to this frequency.

I didn't tried to lower the ram to 266mhz and keep increasing the fsb to find the maximum overclocking capability of the CPU, I really want to keep the ram to 1:1.

Thanks for your capacitor list, I thought it was necessary to keep the voltage of the new capacitors ( if I choose the solid state ones ) at 6.3v.

Thanks for sending me your thread link, I'll check it out later in the afternoon.

Best Regards.
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Old 07-06-2022, 02:08 PM   #7
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Default Re: P4C800 Deluxe broken cap

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4th3m View Post
Sorry for the double-answer, I missed some details.

The other smd cap missing was near the Speech POST reporter chip, but I managed to resolder another one with success ( much better solder than the other one you've seen in the photos ). I checked all the motherboard and there seems to be no other damage apart from the junk I already cleaned out.

Luckyly there was no blown-out capacitors, even if I read from other posts in this forum, that the capacitors in this board are far from good-quality ones.

I think this board was used for a short time, then forgotten in a dusty garage with other cards smashed over it.

I also checked all the capacitors resistance and they all reveals to be good with all the same results compared to each other. ( so lucky! )

Thanks again, sorry for the double-post.
Chemi-con KZG-series caps are known for lasting for a fair while, then suddenly failing! Especially for 2004 and 2005 KZGs, you'll be lucky to get 10 years before they suddenly bulge and leak!

That's why back in 2007, I didn't have sufficient evidence of QC problems of KZGs, but then mine suddenly were bulging and leaking in 2015! (My Asus A7N8X-X from 2004)
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Old 07-07-2022, 11:06 PM   #8
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Default Re: P4C800 Deluxe broken cap

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4th3m View Post
Yesterday I made some overclock, the CPU tolerate only 1.6v from BIOS, if I go higher the system don't POST, I think it's related to that kind of prescott CPU
if the cpu becomes more unstable from more voltage, it usually indicates the thermal wall of overclocking has been reached i.e. the cpu is too hot to handle the increased voltage. 1.6v is quite high for a prescott. make sure u are on at least water cooling if u are running this high of a voltage. usually 1.55v is the highest u should try to go on air cooling.
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Originally Posted by 4th3m View Post
Memory can only go up to 240mhz fsb at 1:1 with 3-4-4-8 timings and 2.85v, but it seems ddr500 pc4000 are nowhere to be found so I think I will keep them to this frequency.
yea those high speed modules are unobtanium now. even if they appear, they usually command too high of a premium to be worth it. u're better off with ddr400 ram with known good quality memory ic chips that overclock well.

some good quality 1gb memory chips to look out for are samsung uccc, hynix d43 and crucial micron -5b. samsung uccc can be identified with "UCCC" written on the memory chips at the end. hynix d43 can be identified with "D43" written on the memory chips at the end. i recommend going for hynix d43 rev. d. u can identify them with "DTP-D43" printed on the end of the memory chips. hynix d43 is also known as intel ram because it is capable of the highest overclock mhz. anyway, for micron -5b, u can identify micron memory chips from the two semi-circular notches on them, one on each side of the memory chips and they have "-5B" printed on them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4th3m View Post
I didn't tried to lower the ram to 266mhz and keep increasing the fsb to find the maximum overclocking capability of the CPU, I really want to keep the ram to 1:1.
yes, for pentium 4 cpus, they prefer more memory bandwidth and more mhz rather than low latency and tight timings, so the best performance can be obtained by overclocking both the fsb and memory synchronously.

dont forgot to play around with the trd timing or mch read delay of the 875p chipset as well. it is also sometimes called "performance level". this is not the same as command rate. it can boost memory performance and can help make the cpu slightly faster. the advantage of buying an 875p chipset over the 865pe chipset back then is that the 875p is better binned for better memory performance and tighter timings than the 865pe.

however, on second thought, it seems that asus doesnt allow u to change this timing in the bios. performance mode in jumperless configuration isnt it. it has to be tweaked through software. i have attached memset 3.0 to this post which allows adjusting the trd value.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4th3m View Post
Thanks for your capacitor list, I thought it was necessary to keep the voltage of the new capacitors ( if I choose the solid state ones ) at 6.3v.
changing the voltage is only when u know the maximum voltage the circuit will be experiencing. for the cpu vrm output, the highest voltage the motherboard will let u overvolt the cpu in the bios is 2v i believe, so a 2.5v cap will be adequate for that.

so when u are shopping for polymer caps online, u can apply the following search filters on the website selling caps when searching: cap diameter 8mm, cap voltage 2.5v, solid (polymer) caps. this will make finding the right cap that will fit much easier.

it looks like u will be going for polymer caps. prescott cpus run quite hot and at that temperature, electrolytics just wont last as long even if they are 10k hour rated. polymers will last much longer than electrolytics at high temperature even if that polymer is only 2k or 5k hour rated.
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Old 07-09-2022, 12:40 PM   #9
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Default Re: P4C800 Deluxe broken cap

Hi to all, thanks for tour answers,

Yes, I'm using a 240mm cooler master AIO liquid, 3rd gen mirror pump, with 2 noctua cooling fans, max temperature under load Is 57 c° at 4.0ghz. Everything Is stable until I enable some antialiasing, seems to be and increased load on the CPU to me, as you said, related to thermals.

Anyway I'm pretty impressed by the performance i gained overall, next week i'm going to polymer cap all the board, then i'll keep you updated.

33.156pt 3D Marks2003, seems to be good enough to me.
2 Times in a row benchmark, 1024x768 anisotropic 1x.

Thanks for all, best regards.
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Old 07-11-2022, 05:57 AM   #10
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Default Re: P4C800 Deluxe broken cap

anti-aliasing=The would be the GPU.

16x anisotropic is known to give excellent results without a notable drop in FPS with pretty much any video card since 2002!
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Old 07-11-2022, 07:34 AM   #11
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Default Re: P4C800 Deluxe broken cap

Hi,

yes but in this system the bottleneck is actually the CPU, the HD 3850 is overkill for this configuration, I doubt that the videocard is the problem, with the akasa freedom force the max GPU temp under load is 47c°, and if I lower the fsb everything return stable so it seems to be an intensive CPU load with high framerates that keeps the cpu unstable at that temperature (57c°).

Even the RAM seems to be ok, I ran memtest for 2 hours, no error at 450mhz fsb, 1:1 ratio.

If I set the vsync on forced by ccc panel the system is stable at 4.0ghz in games. Benchmarks are done with vsync off instead.

Anyway we're going off topic, thanks for your answers. A soon as I polymer cap I'll update you with photos and results.
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Old 07-11-2022, 05:09 PM   #12
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Default Re: P4C800 Deluxe broken cap

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4th3m View Post

Even the RAM seems to be ok, I ran memtest for 2 hours, no error at 450mhz fsb, 1:1 ratio.
450 MHz FSB=Reminds me of my Wolfy (45nm Core 2 Duo) E8400 C0 (an early one with the minimum temp getting stuck at 45C or similar, IIRC) test that I did in 2013.

(Actually, that's on socket 775, where that is the real FSB frequency)

Socket 478 is the last to be on DDR1.

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Old 07-12-2022, 08:27 AM   #13
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Default Re: P4C800 Deluxe broken cap

Yes sorry i was wrong, the Memory frequency is 500mhz, actually the fsb is set to 250mhz.

I post some screenshot of the actual CPUID and GPUZ.

Thanks.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 3d marks 2003 4.0 ghz.jpg (332.9 KB, 8 views)
File Type: jpg Everest Memory Latency.jpg (381.9 KB, 9 views)
File Type: jpg Everest Read Memory.jpg (379.4 KB, 7 views)
File Type: jpg Everest Write Memory.jpg (371.1 KB, 8 views)
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