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    Another new (to me) laptop?

    As I mentioned here, I bought a new laptop, and it isn't very good. The keyboard has improved since I posted that, but I don't really trust it. I feel like returning it, but I don't see anything that I like that is available in this country. The return period ends in nine days.

    I'm looking for a 15" with a decent screen (or at least not 1366x768), Realtek audio (no Synaptics/Conexant codecs since they all apparently have major issues), and a working keyboard (which is difficult for some reason). I don't like the "gamer" appearance, and all of the software I'm running right now works fine on integrated graphics anyway.

    I think the Lenovo ThinkPad L15 looks like what I want, but the "better" AMD version isn't available yet. I don't trust the benchmarks anyway since my old laptop was a dog and my main desktop exceeded my expectations.

    Maybe someone can figure out how to improve the sound quality (through headphones, obviously) or suggest a USB audio device instead if there isn't anything better.

    #2
    Re: Another new (to me) laptop?

    The P53? Thats a workstation laptop. And a very expensive one at that. Do you want this for gaming? Cause it's for like, 3d modeling. Probably wasn't built with decent speakers because whoever is using it is using either a dock with reference speakers or with headphones connected

    and yeah as I found out the 10th gen intel chips run pretty hot (10510U here). But that thing looks like it can handle the heat

    The 53 has a quadro card and a 4k OLED display. A bit overkill. The 1080P is still much better than 1366x768
    Last edited by Uranium-235; 08-25-2020, 11:53 PM.
    Cap Datasheet Depot: http://www.paullinebarger.net/DS/
    ^If you have datasheets not listed PM me

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      #3
      Re: Another new (to me) laptop?

      Originally posted by lti View Post
      Maybe someone can figure out how to improve the sound quality (through headphones, obviously) or suggest a USB audio device instead if there isn't anything better.
      If it has BT, you can easily (and inexpensively) pick up a BT remote speaker. I use one for my Surface3Pros (which I use ONLY as media players!)

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        #4
        Re: Another new (to me) laptop?

        Originally posted by Uranium-235 View Post
        The P53? Thats a workstation laptop. And a very expensive one at that. Do you want this for gaming? Cause it's for like, 3d modeling. Probably wasn't built with decent speakers because whoever is using it is using either a dock with reference speakers or with headphones connected

        and yeah as I found out the 10th gen intel chips run pretty hot (10510U here). But that thing looks like it can handle the heat

        The 53 has a quadro card and a 4k OLED display. A bit overkill. The 1080P is still much better than 1366x768
        It cost a lot more than I wanted to spend, but it was one of the cheapest with the storage option that I wanted. I could have been less stupid and just upgraded the SSD in a cheaper one. I got close to the base model with the 1080p LCD instead of the 4K OLED. There are a lot of complaints about CPU cooling on this model, but GPU cooling is good.

        I was using headphones the whole time. I don't care about the built-in speakers. I thought that they might have assumed that nobody would use the built-in audio for anything other than basic business use (like conference calls), but that wouldn't explain why they have a more advanced version of the Dolby "enhancements" than the cheaper models. Also, some of the X1 models use similar audio (same CX11880 chip, at least).

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          #5
          Re: Another new (to me) laptop?

          What are you using it for?

          You can get bluetooth earbuds (not cheap ones) and use those
          Cap Datasheet Depot: http://www.paullinebarger.net/DS/
          ^If you have datasheets not listed PM me

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            #6
            Re: Another new (to me) laptop?

            A usb dac ?

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              #7
              Re: Another new (to me) laptop?

              Originally posted by lti View Post
              As I mentioned here, I bought a new laptop, and it isn't very good. The keyboard has improved since I posted that, but I don't really trust it. I feel like returning it, but I don't see anything that I like that is available in this country. The return period ends in nine days.

              I'm looking for a 15" with a decent screen (or at least not 1366x768), Realtek audio (no Synaptics/Conexant codecs since they all apparently have major issues), and a working keyboard (which is difficult for some reason). I don't like the "gamer" appearance, and all of the software I'm running right now works fine on integrated graphics anyway.

              I think the Lenovo ThinkPad L15 looks like what I want, but the "better" AMD version isn't available yet. I don't trust the benchmarks anyway since my old laptop was a dog and my main desktop exceeded my expectations.

              Maybe someone can figure out how to improve the sound quality (through headphones, obviously) or suggest a USB audio device instead if there isn't anything better.

              HARDCORE https://slickdeals.net/f/14298893-ne...?src=catpagev2
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                #8
                Re: Another new (to me) laptop?

                yeah but are those 144hz panels gsync?
                Cap Datasheet Depot: http://www.paullinebarger.net/DS/
                ^If you have datasheets not listed PM me

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                  #9
                  Re: Another new (to me) laptop?

                  Originally posted by Uranium-235 View Post
                  What are you using it for?
                  I'm definitely not using it for anything that needs this kind of laptop. It's mostly for basic stuff, but maybe having something a little faster than I need now will make it last longer (although I ran a Core i3 for almost nine years). I do occasionally use a video capture device, but it doesn't happen often enough to choose a high-end laptop. This P53 should have been total overkill for me, but I ended up feeling a little ripped off initially.

                  I did something to make the headphone output sound better, but I don't know what it was. I was looking through the Dolby audio software, and even though I had enhancements disabled in the Windows sound settings, the weird distorted sound I was getting disappeared. Maybe it's all made up in my head.

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                    #10
                    Re: Another new (to me) laptop?

                    Originally posted by Uranium-235 View Post
                    yeah but are those 144hz panels gsync?
                    It never mentioned that for sure, nor could I find out what audio hardware it had, still hard to find the 4800H in anything and 16 threads would be awesome! I would buy it if I could, my best gaming laptop is a 2017 inspiron 7567 which still good enough for me.
                    Last edited by BigTroll; 08-26-2020, 11:02 PM.
                    My Computer: AMD Ryzen 9 3900X, Asrock X370 Killer SLI/AC, 32GB G.SKILL TRIDENT Z RGB DDR4 3200, 500GB WD Black NVME and 2TB Toshiba HD,Geforce RTX 3080 FOUNDERS Edition, In-Win 303 White, EVGA SuperNova 750 G3, Windows 10 Pro

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                      #11
                      Re: Another new (to me) laptop?

                      Originally posted by BigTroll View Post
                      nor could I find out what audio hardware it had
                      You can look at the driver download page or Lenovo's PSREF.
                      https://cdn.badcaps-static.com/pdfs/...7692bee6fa.pdf

                      Since the only problems left are the CPU temperature and the GPU being completely unused, I'm a little less disappointed in it. I'm still debating returning it and getting a model with integrated graphics, but there's also the extremely small chance that I might have a use for the GPU later.

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                        #12
                        Re: Another new (to me) laptop?

                        Originally posted by lti View Post
                        Maybe someone can figure out how to improve the sound quality (through headphones, obviously) or suggest a USB audio device instead if there isn't anything better.
                        I honestly have never had issues with the audio quality from any hardware (both desktop and laptop) built in the last 10 years.

                        Generally, the only "issue" I encounter with audio is that some machines have much weaker audio output than others and thus distort earlier (at lower volumes), especially with a lot of bass-y music. But this is only when having headphones directly connected to the audio output jack. The cure for that, however, has always been to use an external amplifier... or really really expensive (but sensitive) headphones.

                        And of course, always turn OFF all audio "Enhancements". Some software EQs tend to add garbage to certain frequencies (on that note, the built-in EQ in WinAmp is probably one of the worst I've heard.) Also, change the audio output to headphones, regardless if you are using headphones or speakers. When set to speakers, the driver/codec will usually add a bit of reverb/echo to give that "live/roomy" sound. This can be very noticeable on certain codecs/drivers when you use headphones, and also tends to smear directional sound (annoying for games where you use sound to determine how close or far something is away from you... eg. Counter-Strike, Fortnite, and the rest.)
                        Last edited by momaka; 08-29-2020, 02:13 PM.

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                          #13
                          Re: Another new (to me) laptop?

                          Originally posted by momaka View Post
                          Generally, the only "issue" I encounter with audio is that some machines have much weaker audio output than others and thus distort earlier (at lower volumes), especially with a lot of bass-y music.
                          I haven't seen that, but my old laptop has an unusually low output level through the headphone jack. I think they were trying to reduce the chances of hearing loss when using headphones, but that doesn't work with sensitive headphones and also prevents the headphone jack from being used as a line-level output.

                          Originally posted by momaka View Post
                          And of course, always turn OFF all audio "Enhancements". Some software EQs tend to add garbage to certain frequencies
                          I had enhancements turned off, but I think the Dolby "enhancements" were still turned on anyway. I made a custom profile with flat EQ and everything turned off when the audio problem disappeared. Then I tried turning everything back on, and I couldn't hear a difference. It did sound like a "virtual surround sound" effect was still turned on after disabling enhancements in the Windows sound properties.

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                            #14
                            Re: Another new (to me) laptop?

                            also wanted to throw out this model, we've been getting these in at the schools for new teacher laptops, they have a alluminum lid and feel pretty solid, only thing I don't like about them vs the last e595 thinkpad's is the keyboard is integrated into the palmrest where on the older 595 it was separate, other then that they seem to run cool. E15 G2 AMD https://www.newegg.com/black-lenovo-...&source=region
                            My Computer: AMD Ryzen 9 3900X, Asrock X370 Killer SLI/AC, 32GB G.SKILL TRIDENT Z RGB DDR4 3200, 500GB WD Black NVME and 2TB Toshiba HD,Geforce RTX 3080 FOUNDERS Edition, In-Win 303 White, EVGA SuperNova 750 G3, Windows 10 Pro

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                              #15
                              Re: Another new (to me) laptop?

                              Originally posted by lti View Post
                              I haven't seen that, but my old laptop has an unusually low output level through the headphone jack.
                              I did a measurement back in college for a project and found that the audio output voltage and power levels between different PCs can vary quite a bit.

                              Code:
                              ----- Dell Optiplex 170L (desktop PC, 2004)
                              55 Hz	60 Hz	1 KHz	<--- test frequency (sine wave)
                              
                              Line Out Voltage (V)	
                              1.001	1.013	1.077	<--- no load
                              
                              0.920	0.932	1.000	<--- 1 KOhm load
                              0.526	0.537	0.609	<--- 100 Ohms load
                              0.270	0.276	0.321	<--- 33 Ohms load
                              0.252	0.258	0.301	<--- 20 Ohms load
                              
                              Output Power (mW)	
                              0.846	0.869	1.000	<--- 1 KOhm load
                              2.767	2.884	3.709	<--- 100 Ohms load
                              2.204	2.313	3.122	<--- 33 Ohms load
                              3.168	3.326	4.524	<--- 20 Ohms load
                              
                              
                              ----- Gateway GT5656 (desktop PC, 2007)
                              55 Hz	60 Hz	1 KHz	<--- test frequency (sine wave)
                              
                              Line Out Voltage (V)
                              1.43	1.43	1.422	<--- no load
                              
                              1.374	1.374	1.368	<--- 1 KOhm load
                              1.012	1.015	1.018	<--- 100 Ohms load
                              0.637	0.64	0.653	<--- 33 Ohms load
                              0.601	0.604	0.618	<--- 20 Ohms load
                              
                              Output Power (mW)	
                              1.888	1.888	1.871	<--- 1 KOhm load
                              10.241	10.302	10.363	<--- 100 Ohms load
                              12.296	12.412	12.921	<--- 33 Ohms load
                              18.060	18.241	19.096	<--- 20 Ohms load
                              
                              
                              ----- Dell Latitude C600 (laptop, 2001)
                              55 Hz	60 Hz	1 KHz	<--- test frequency (sine wave)
                              
                              Line Out Voltage (V)	
                              0.780	0.791	0.847	<--- no load
                              
                              0.778	0.789	0.846	<--- 1 KOhm load
                              0.737	0.752	0.840	<--- 100 Ohms load
                              0.573	0.602	0.822	<--- 33 Ohms load
                              0.439	0.471	0.807	<--- 20 Ohms load
                              
                              Output Power (mW)	
                              0.605	0.623	0.716	<--- 1 KOhm load
                              5.432	5.655	7.056	<--- 100 Ohms load
                              9.949	10.982	20.475	<--- 33 Ohms load
                              9.636	11.092	32.562	<--- 20 Ohms load
                              Note in particular the difference between the Latitude C600 laptop and Optiplex 170L desktop: the Latitude laptop has overall lower output voltage peak level (~0.8V RMS) than the Optiplex 170L (~1V RMS). However, the C600 audio appears to maintain its output voltage better when it comes to load impedance... to a point, or at least at high frequencies. At low frequencies (55/60 Hz), the output on both falls quite a bit. I suspect the C600 has really small output coupling caps (due to being a laptop with limited space inside), and hence the sharp drop in output voltage and power as the frequency is lowered. On the other hand, the Optiplex 170L appears to have larger output caps, because output doesn't fall as much with frequency. But it also appears to have relatively large series resistance on the output (10-100 Ohms is the norm, and IIRC, the 170L had either a 20 or 22 Ohms resistor), because the output levels appear to be more affected by the lower output impedances.

                              And of course, the GT5656 desktop has both a series resistor and capacitor as well, but if I remember, it had a 10 Ohm resistor only and a 100 uF cap with each audio output. So RC high-pass cutoff frequency is around 37 Hz with a 33-Ohm load impedance (about equivalent to an average pair of headphones with 32-Ohm impedance.)

                              And there's this old HP Pavilion desktop PC from 2000 with a TDA1517 audio amp IC:
                              Code:
                              Line Out Voltage (V)
                              4.080	4.090	4.120	<--- no load
                              
                              4.070	4.080	4.110	<--- 1 KOhm load
                              3.980	3.980	4.020	<--- 100 Ohms load
                              3.796	3.808	3.850	<--- 33 Ohms load
                              3.595	3.612	3.694	<--- 20 Ohms load
                              
                              Output Power (mW)	
                              16.565	16.646	16.892	<--- 1 KOhm load
                              158.40	158.40	161.60	<--- 100 Ohms load
                              436.65	439.42	449.16	<--- 33 Ohms load
                              646.20	652.32	682.28	<--- 20 Ohms load
                              4V output levels!
                              And will put out close to 1/2 Watt into 33-Ohms load. Hell yeah!
                              (After all, it was designed to drive a pair of passive speakers that came attached to the CRT monitor that normally came with this PC.)

                              Originally posted by lti View Post
                              It did sound like a "virtual surround sound" effect was still turned on after disabling enhancements in the Windows sound properties.
                              Like I said, switch the output to "Stereo Headphones".
                              If you have it set to "Speakers", most audio codecs add a bit of delay/reverb to give sound a more "live" feel with room speakers.

                              Also, kind of off-topic, but one time a colleague and I were sitting in this large conference room and intentionally tried to play the same music video at the same time. We both counted down and click the play button. Of course, due to small differences in timing, this created a really really cool "live" music effect. It sounded as if the music was played in a large hall room. Very trippy.
                              Last edited by momaka; 08-31-2020, 12:59 PM.

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                                #16
                                Re: Another new (to me) laptop?

                                If I remember right, I was getting a constant output voltage, no matter what the load was. It was somewhere between 0.23-0.25V.

                                This laptop automatically switches to headphones, and there were actually two different effects for speakers and headphones (Dolby for speakers and Windows Sonic for headphones).
                                Originally posted by BigTroll View Post
                                I was looking at that one too. I see that the only model that hasn't sold out is the one with the top-of-the-line model with the Ryzen 7 and 1TB SSD. That would probably be good.

                                I still think the benchmark scores are a little too good to be true, but I don't doubt that they're at least a little faster than competing Intel CPUs. I think it's weird that most people with Ryzen laptops are just bragging about their Cinebench scores and the rest are complaining about dropped frames when watching YouTube videos.
                                Last edited by lti; 08-31-2020, 12:56 PM.

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                                  #17
                                  Re: Another new (to me) laptop?

                                  I found that the two Dolby programs on this laptop (one automatically installed by Windows and the one that Lenovo provides) both have completely different "enhancement" settings, and both are active at the same time. The Lenovo Dolby "enhancements" were still enabled this whole time, even after I thought I had everything off.

                                  That also means that there were three "enhancements" enabled at the same time (Windows Dolby, Lenovo Dolby, and Windows Sonic) when headphones were plugged in, but only two (the two Dolby ones) when I was using the built-in speakers. Even after all of that, I feel like there might be some "loudness equalization" thing active that I haven't found yet. Thanks, Lenovo. Why can't that stuff be disabled by default like my desktop?

                                  If all modern laptops have something stupid like that (audio "enhancements, cooling problems, or stability problems), then I might as well keep this one. I know that the benchmarks say that the Ryzen 5 4500U is faster than the i7-9750H that's in this thing, but I don't feel like screwing around with a return and then learning that the benchmarks were completely wrong (for the third time) and the next laptop has a different problem.
                                  Last edited by lti; 09-02-2020, 11:24 PM.

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                                    #18
                                    Re: Another new (to me) laptop?

                                    Originally posted by lti View Post
                                    If I remember right, I was getting a constant output voltage, no matter what the load was. It was somewhere between 0.23-0.25V.
                                    That's a bit low. It does meet the 200 mV input of most amplifiers, though, so I suppose it's OK.

                                    Originally posted by lti View Post
                                    I found that the two Dolby programs on this laptop (one automatically installed by Windows and the one that Lenovo provides) both have completely different "enhancement" settings, and both are active at the same time. The Lenovo Dolby "enhancements" were still enabled this whole time, even after I thought I had everything off.

                                    That also means that there were three "enhancements" enabled at the same time (Windows Dolby, Lenovo Dolby, and Windows Sonic) when headphones were plugged in, but only two (the two Dolby ones) when I was using the built-in speakers. Even after all of that, I feel like there might be some "loudness equalization" thing active that I haven't found yet. Thanks, Lenovo. Why can't that stuff be disabled by default like my desktop?
                                    Because OEMs love to bundle their stuff with bloadware. I still can't figure out why, though - it makes their PCs slower and less responsive. A clean Windows install feels a lot snappier than one loaded with all kinds of garbage.

                                    If you have a spare HDD, you could just do a clean install as a test to see how the audio sounds then.

                                    Originally posted by lti View Post
                                    I know that the benchmarks say that the Ryzen 5 4500U is faster than the i7-9750H that's in this thing, but I don't feel like screwing around with a return and then learning that the benchmarks were completely wrong (for the third time) and the next laptop has a different problem.
                                    Don't be reading so much into those benchmarks. They are mostly there for advertising / boasting purposes. In reality, a low-end quad-core (or a good dual-core with HT/SMT) should be enough for most people, and YT as well.

                                    I've been watching YT @ 1080p on my 1st gen Phenom X4 9150e (low-end, low-power CPU) without any issues. I've also set an Athlon II X4 2.8 GHz Dell deskto for my parents to use as an HTPC. While the CPU use can get a little high when they watch YT TV (up to 50-75% sometimes), they get 0 dropped frames and system runs very smoothly overall - all that with only 3 GB of RAM, onboard video (HD4350), and a 160 GB clunker HDD. Netflix and HBO, on the other hand, not only run smoothly but also barely touch the CPU. YT and YT TV are indeed quite bloated (especially YT TV). But if a 10-YO system can handle them OK still, then I don't see how a new laptop won't. If it can't, it's most certainly a Windows / bloatware issue. On that note, I'm surprised you kept your old i3 laptop with the OEM Windows install for as long as you did. I would have gutted the original HDD and installed my own OS probably from day 1.
                                    Last edited by momaka; 09-08-2020, 01:49 PM.

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                                      #19
                                      Re: Another new (to me) laptop?

                                      Originally posted by momaka View Post
                                      If you have a spare HDD, you could just do a clean install as a test to see how the audio sounds then.
                                      I don't know what drives it supports. I have one spare M.2 SATA SSD, but I don't know if the M.2 slots are NVMe only. I don't know if Windows will automatically install the Lenovo driver with the Dolby software, either.
                                      Originally posted by momaka View Post
                                      Don't be reading so much into those benchmarks. They are mostly there for advertising / boasting purposes.
                                      That's why I've already said that I don't trust benchmarks. I remember when Passmark was popular, and the results were complete nonsense.
                                      Originally posted by momaka View Post
                                      I've been watching YT @ 1080p on my 1st gen Phenom X4 9150e (low-end, low-power CPU) without any issues. I've also set an Athlon II X4 2.8 GHz Dell deskto for my parents to use as an HTPC. While the CPU use can get a little high when they watch YT TV (up to 50-75% sometimes), they get 0 dropped frames and system runs very smoothly overall - all that with only 3 GB of RAM, onboard video (HD4350), and a 160 GB clunker HDD. Netflix and HBO, on the other hand, not only run smoothly but also barely touch the CPU. YT and YT TV are indeed quite bloated (especially YT TV). But if a 10-YO system can handle them OK still, then I don't see how a new laptop won't. If it can't, it's most certainly a Windows / bloatware issue. On that note, I'm surprised you kept your old i3 laptop with the OEM Windows install for as long as you did. I would have gutted the original HDD and installed my own OS probably from day 1.
                                      That i3 was dropping frames on YouTube at 1080p. It would play at 720p, but the fan got loud. There was no hardware VP8 or VP9 decoder, and the H.264 decoder caused random BSODs unless you installed the graphics driver that Intel silently released in 2015. As far as I know, that driver version was only available directly from Intel.

                                      The new laptop obviously runs YouTube fine. I can even encode 1080p60 in realtime (with either GPU, even though my desktop with the same version of Intel graphics doesn't handle it).

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