Is Seasonic SS-660KM PSU ErP Ready

[momaka]

Re: Is Seasonic SS-660KM PSU ErP Ready

Hmmm... Thanks, but no. No. To be honest, that device looks like somebody took it apart . How it works with so much exposed solder joints and electronic components without interference is beyond me.

It's just a tester without a case. No problems whatsoever. I still haven't built a case for mine, and I've had it for close to a year now. I'm pretty diligent about storing it in its box when not in use, though.

I'll get a multimeter WITH housing. I am also a railway hobbist and a multimeter with probes will prove more useful for various tests other than capacitors.

In that case, you're indeed better off by getting a multimeter first.
In fact, if you do or intend to do any kind of electronic repair / troubleshooting / designing, a multimeter is probably one of the first tools you should have. The transistor tester mentioned above is probably most useful if you plan to do a lot of PC, power supply, and amplifier repairs, as you will often encounter electrolytic caps on those that may need testing.

Anyway:
If you want a capacitor tester, there is an eBay Offering that was also mentioned by EEVBlog...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Br3L1B80ow

The Accuracy is shit and it can only be used as a digital thing, meaning: Component is somewhat OKish, component is garbage.
No more can be said with that device...

No, the accuracy is not bad at all, especially for ESR and capacitance testing. Only the Vloss for capacitors is not accurate... but who cares about that parameter anyways? I use mine (a GM328 green PCB) almost exclusively for testing electrolytic capacitors, and so far it's been tremendously helpful in finding which are bad and which aren't.

When it comes to transistor testing, I still use the oldschool diode check on my multimeter, as I find it a more reliable test method and also able to check the transistor in circuit in most cases (only when able to account for any parallel components, of course).

I concur, IMHO semi-fanless is as stupid as start-stop in automobile engines.

Don't even get me started on that topic. I'll just say that I am glad that my car doesn't have this "feature". (My car is old enough to still have a throttle cable, thankfully )

[TELVM]

Re: Is Seasonic SS-660KM PSU ErP Ready

... I'll just say that I am glad that my car doesn't have this "feature". (My car is old enough to still have a throttle cable, thankfully )

Lucky you! I'll just say this about the throttle-by-wire "advanced feature" in mine:

(Apologies for the off-topic).

[UserXP]

Re: Is Seasonic SS-660KM PSU ErP Ready

I just love your comments, guys. Thanks for making them funny in the situation with pending troubleshooting. ;-)

[UserXP]

Re: Is Seasonic SS-660KM PSU ErP Ready

Guys, hi.

There is no new development regarding this PSU. It has been working and powering on normally for the past few weeks. Until I gather money for a new one and in order to prevent further damage to its caps or any other component thereof, could you provide me with some ideas on how to modify its fan controller? It would be good to somehow make the fan run at low speed all the time upon startup, and let the circuitry increase its speed only when required. Would something like that be possible, and simple to do?

[momaka]

Re: Is Seasonic SS-660KM PSU ErP Ready

... could you provide me with some ideas on how to modify its fan controller? It would be good to somehow make the fan run at low speed all the time upon startup, and let the circuitry increase its speed only when required. Would something like that be possible, and simple to do?

Yes, should be doable. Most likely, you will just need two 0.5-2 Amp rated diodes (anything rated between 0.5 Amps and 2 Amps will do, and even better if it's a Schottky type).

First check if the fan's negative/black (-) wire is connected straight to ground. If it is, then simply disconnect the positive/red (+) wire and connect it to both diodes' Cathode ends. Then, for one diode, connect the Anode to where the controller's output / fan's positive/red (+) wire was connected. The other diode, connect its anode to the 5V rail. This way, the fan will always be getting about 4.5V going to it from the 5V rail. But, if the fan controller decides to run the fan faster, it will send a higher voltage to it through the other diode. (Hence why you need two diodes). Actually, I already suggested that in post #40, but here I am giving you all the details how/why.

[UserXP]

Re: Is Seasonic SS-660KM PSU ErP Ready

@momaka

Thank you! I think I'll be able to make that. I may already have the required parts, but I would like to make that as an "extension cord" so that the fan could be unplugged when I open the unit for cleaning (I'll try to avoid a permanent connection.

[momaka]

Re: Is Seasonic SS-660KM PSU ErP Ready

Yeah, you can still do that. Just remove the fan connector on the PSU side (not the connector on the fan) and build the circuit on a small PCB (or alternatively, you can have components "up in the air", as long as their leads are insulated well). Then connect the PSU's fan connector to that circuit and the fan to it. Now the fan will still be removable and you will have the circuit you need.

[UserXP]

Re: Is Seasonic SS-660KM PSU ErP Ready

Yup, it is quite possible. I am gathering the required parts. I will try to find, or salvage, the plug of the same type from some broken PSU and us it to make that "extension".

I still have one question, though. Does anybody know how this PSU's fan controller kicks in? Does it engage the fan when the PSU reaches certain load, or does it kick in when it detects the inner temperature? If latter is the case, maybe we could hook up something to that sensor, e.g. to attach its probe to one of the radiators. That way, the warmth of the radiator would keep the circuit on, and I would be spared from additional soldering and disassembling. Is something like this feasible?

[Behemot]

Re: Is Seasonic SS-660KM PSU ErP Ready

The problem has nothing to do with capacitors and whether semi-fanless mode has anything with it is questionable. Lot of Seasonic X and later units suffer from this so it is likely some common problem. According to my brief experience the stand-by rail was always working, the main supply was just not turning on. My unit actually was even shutting down after a while of operation when it sometimes started. All the time the stand-by rail was outputing steady +5 V. There have been some indications it is actually +5V SB rail problem but my observation contradicts it.

It's sometimes interesting how ppl can talk 5 pages about theories with close to none probability. How many bad Rubycons YXG or Chemi-Cons KY have ALL the ppl in this thread seen in their WHOLE life? One hand would be enough to count that I pressume. Yet you send this poor guy to god knows where to shop for your ill-favourite Panasonic FR series to spend a third of value of another similar (used) unit and who knows what time doing all that when there is no chance it will get fixed.

As stated this is common problem, nobody nowhere found the solution yet, Seasonic always replaces the unit with new ones (or factory refurbished). Just disassemble it for parts (incl. the good caps), keep modular cables and get something else. BTW they have later increased the warranty to 7 and I think now even 10 years for comparable current series.

Also as stated, that ErP is just bullshit, turn all that crap off and don't think about it.

[momaka]

Re: Is Seasonic SS-660KM PSU ErP Ready

I still have one question, though. Does anybody know how this PSU's fan controller kicks in? Does it engage the fan when the PSU reaches certain load, or does it kick in when it detects the inner temperature? If latter is the case, maybe we could hook up something to that sensor, e.g. to attach its probe to one of the radiators. That way, the warmth of the radiator would keep the circuit on, and I would be spared from additional soldering and disassembling. Is something like this feasible?

I have not taken one of these PSUs apart, so I don't know what type of fan control method it uses. Older and/or more simple PSUs typically just have a thermistor on the secondary heatsink and regulate the voltage to the fan based on the temperature of the secondary heatsink. But with this being a semi-fanless unit, it probably uses an IC to control the fan speed and when it turns On. As to whether it's load or temperature dependent - I don't know. You would have to trace the circuit of the fan controller and maybe even draw a diagram for us (if there isn't one on the internet anywhere - which I doubt there is).

That's why I commonly suggest the 2-diode method - it's very simple and anyone can build it. The only controller modding that is easier than that is when you have the simple temperature-regulated fan controller with a thermistor, like I mentioned above - those are easy to tweak by just installing a resistor in parallel or series with the thermistor (depending if it's an NTC or PTC thermistor).

[Stefan Payne]

Re: Is Seasonic SS-660KM PSU ErP Ready

I have not taken one of these PSUs apart, so I don't know what type of fan control method it uses.

I have.
They use a dedicated IC that is made for Semi Fanless Operation. The Cooler Master Master Watt 550W has the same chip...

Look at Techpowerup for a similar there you can see one of those, don't know who made it. I think it was Anpec...

[UserXP]

Re: Is Seasonic SS-660KM PSU ErP Ready

Thank you all for your replies, guys. I am still scaling my choices. I am at a loss. The PSU has been working fine for weeks now, it hasn't refused to start since the last time.

I also don't think that such quality caps as in this unit could have failed, so I still haven't bought the replacement caps. The fan should, in my opinion, be on as the PC case is in a closed space and near a heating radiator pipeline, which is why I got interested in modding the PSU to run the fan always at at least low speed (and thought that that extra heat might have somehow damaged a component inside the PSU). I mean, the surroundings are not warm or hot, but a bit more air circulation couldn't hurt.

@Behemot (and possibly others)

I do admit that this topic has gone a bit off topic. Apart from not having enough time to try any of the suggestions so far, I still am a bit reluctant to accept that this PSU is going to dye. It is out of warranty and I can not RMA it, only service it (or replace it with a new one). You've mentioned that X series PSUs suffer from the same issue. Is there a modular SeaSonic around 600W representative that does not exibit similar issues after some time of use?
I really do like how SeaSonic builds their PSUs, and all the protections it offers, all of which did step in once or twice so far and protected the computer from surges.

[Behemot]

Re: Is Seasonic SS-660KM PSU ErP Ready

All versions based upon the original or modified X series suffer from this (Gold and Platinum KM-KM3 variants). Maybe the Primes do not as they likely have totally different platform which addressed this, but who knows. They have so long warranty it does not matter as long as you keep a proof of purchase though.

[Stefan Payne]

Re: Is Seasonic SS-660KM PSU ErP Ready

Spending your time trying to solve this issue is probably worth it, itsn't it?

Have you tried replacing the (small) Caps in +5VSB??
Or did you just not bother because of "Japanese!!!111" caps??

[UserXP]

Re: Is Seasonic SS-660KM PSU ErP Ready

No, I didn't try replacing those caps. I got an ESR meter at hand, a MK-328 model. I was playing with some caps pulled out from dead motherboards. I found two Nichicons rated at 6.3V3300uF. The multimeter measured their capacitance at over 4000uF, and so did this ESR meter, but it showed that the ESR was around 0.5 ohms. The capacitance looks very off, but I have no reference as to what should its normal ESR be. I would like to acquire some experience using and reading these caps before I move the actual disassembly process. So far, the PSU works.

Now, I may try and remove the small capacitors from the PSU to test them. They are all 50V, only capacitance is 10, 22 and 47uF respectively. I have no idea what is the normal ESR value of these caps. Given that their capacitance is not big, they will probably have higher ESR. This ESR meter displays the following values: capacitance, Vloss and ESR. Do you have some ideas about the abovementioned normal readings of these capacitors, what should I expect? They are all Rubycon YXG series. I should probably gather all the information prior to disassembling the PSU as I will not be able to use the computer during that time for obvious reasons.

[momaka]

Re: Is Seasonic SS-660KM PSU ErP Ready

Now, I may try and remove the small capacitors from the PSU to test them. They are all 50V, only capacitance is 10, 22 and 47uF respectively. I have no idea what is the normal ESR value of these caps. Given that their capacitance is not big, they will probably have higher ESR. This ESR meter displays the following values: capacitance, Vloss and ESR. Do you have some ideas about the abovementioned normal readings of these capacitors, what should I expect? They are all Rubycon YXG series.

Get the Rubycon YXG data sheet and see what the impedance (ESR) is supposed to be for each capacitor. Use the capacitor physical size (diameter and height) when looking up your capacitors - this is because within a capacitor series, all of the caps with the same size will have the same ESR/impedance and ripple current. As for the capacitance - just make sure it's within 20% of the stated value. For ESR, within 50% on the high side is probably still reasonable, given the accuracy of your meter and the temperature of your testing environment.

I got an ESR meter at hand, a MK-328 model. I was playing with some caps pulled out from dead motherboards. I found two Nichicons rated at 6.3V3300uF. The multimeter measured their capacitance at over 4000uF, and so did this ESR meter, but it showed that the ESR was around 0.5 ohms. The capacitance looks very off, but I have no reference as to what should its normal ESR be.

Those sound like bad Nichicon HM, HN, or HZ capacitors from the 2001-2005 era (H01xx through H05xx date codes on each capacitor). If yes, they are BAD. Abnormally high capacitance indicates high leakage current within the cap. This fools the meter into showing that the ESR is low when it actually probably isn't. If you get a cap like that, it's junk/gone.

[UserXP]

Re: Is Seasonic SS-660KM PSU ErP Ready

Thanks, momaka. I have already found the datasheet PDF. You are correct, the bad Nichicons were indeed HM series from 2004.
Now, I also tested several 6.3V 3300uF and 16V1500uF Rubycon MBZ capacitors. I looked into their datasheet and saw that their ESR for a given size and value should be around 12mΩ, or 0.012Ω. This ESR measured them at 0.5-0.6Ω, which was 5 times the normal ESR value. These are dated 2006 and have never been used, they are still attached to their paper strip. Their capacitance was also slightly higher than the rated one. I guess I can discard those as well.
I did, however, find many NCC 6.3V 1000uF KZG caps pulled out from some old motherboards to be totally within their specs when it comes to their ESR and capacitance.

[Behemot]

Re: Is Seasonic SS-660KM PSU ErP Ready

Is it even calibrated? The leads usually have up to 0.5 ohm depending on their quality (but even the best ones are 0.1-0.2 which is still zones times higher than of many low-ESR caps).

[UserXP]

Re: Is Seasonic SS-660KM PSU ErP Ready

Is it even calibrated? The leads usually have up to 0.5 ohm depending on their quality (but even the best ones are 0.1-0.2 which is still zones times higher than of many low-ESR caps).

Yes, it has a built in calibration test and I did that prior to any measurement. Thn, I compared the capacitance reading between the ESR meter and the AN8008 multimeter of one and the same capacitor and the values were almost identical (+/- very little).

[Wester547]

Re: Is Seasonic SS-660KM PSU ErP Ready

Now, I also tested several 6.3V 3300uF and 16V1500uF Rubycon MBZ capacitors. I looked into their datasheet and saw that their ESR for a given size and value should be around 12mΩ, or 0.012Ω. This ESR measured them at 0.5-0.6Ω, which was 5 times the normal ESR value. These are dated 2006 and have never been used, they are still attached to their paper strip. Their capacitance was also slightly higher than the rated one. I guess I can discard those as well.

Those are probably counterfeits if you sourced them from eBay (egecku?). That, or they may need to be reformed. But as Behemot said, the longer leads mean higher ESR.