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Is Seasonic SS-660KM PSU ErP Ready

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    #21
    Re: Is Seasonic SS-660KM PSU ErP Ready

    Given that this was the first time this PSU was ever opened, I was surprised at it not being very dusty inside, even after 5 years of almost every day use.
    Thanks for that suggestion, Quaddro, but I am afraid that disassembling this PSU would be much to complicated for me. I am going to leave it the way it is with this "ErP workaround" until I get a replacement. Maybe it's... I don't know... It's SeaSonic after all...
    Last edited by UserXP; 10-14-2017, 10:57 AM.

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      #22
      Re: Is Seasonic SS-660KM PSU ErP Ready

      Originally posted by UserXP View Post
      Given that this was the first time this PSU was ever opened, I was surprised at it not being very dusty inside, even after 5 years of almost every day use.
      Thanks for that suggestion, Quaddro, but I am afraid that disassembling this PSU would be much to complicated for me. I am going to leave it the way it is with this "ErP workaround" until I get a replacement. Maybe it's... I don't know... It's SeaSonic after all...
      That single failure is means that your psu is not normal..

      And if it's not running in normal condition, then it will be the threat for life of your machine..

      It'll spread like a cancer, kill it slowly...until there's no breath left anymore..

      Yes, nobody perfect..
      But you'll not marry a woman if she only will bring misery on your life, right?

      Last edited by Quaddro; 10-14-2017, 11:20 AM.

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        #23
        Re: Is Seasonic SS-660KM PSU ErP Ready

        Originally posted by stj View Post
        try warming it through the grill with a hairdryer - then pushing the button.
        hello sir ,

        i have heard similar stories regarding motherboard also , for eg like this

        https://rog.asus.com/forum/showthrea...h-a-hair-dryer

        is this because of capacitors ( even solid ? ) or because of humidity ?

        thanks
        Last edited by jarvis7; 10-14-2017, 02:44 PM.

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          #24
          Re: Is Seasonic SS-660KM PSU ErP Ready

          Although the PC won't power on normally after cold nights, mouse LED and USB ports still receive power. So the PSU sends stand-by power. Maybe something trips some sort of protection...

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            #25
            Re: Is Seasonic SS-660KM PSU ErP Ready

            Originally posted by UserXP View Post
            I don't know how to even begin to remove the PCB as there are a few of them inside.
            You don't.
            No, really. You don't remove the PCB.
            You remove the casing, that gives you access to the PCB.

            First: Remove the two small screws on the bottom, near the Exhaustgril.
            Then remove the two screws left and right in front (by the modular PCB).
            Then you remove the single Screw in front of the modular PCB.
            For this Screws youneed a PH1 screwdriver.

            Now its a bit dumb.
            Because there is one PH2 Screw in about the middle of the fan grill, that also needs to be removed.

            Then the Casing should be removable. And you can get access to the PCB. No real need to disassemble further.

            BUT:
            I disagree with the others.
            I'd look around the +12V Switching area first.

            What makes me suspicios is the high quality 3900uF/16V capacitor that you find in many newer Seasonic units in the +5V Standby area, right next to the +5VSB Transformer. Nobody else does that. And I've never ever seen such thing anyywhere else.

            So I'd just replace the two small caps right under the 3900uF/16V Nippon Chemicon (Should be something like KZH or so really good quality, for whatever reason)...
            After that the 3300uF/6,3V.

            Because they are all in the 'hot area'...

            PS: Have you used this PSU in semi Fanless mode or in active fan mode?

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              #26
              Re: Is Seasonic SS-660KM PSU ErP Ready

              ErP is just another fancy (stupid) name for disabling power to the USB, PS/2 ports (if any), and a bunch of other stuff (WOL/Wake On Lan, WOR, etc.) On older motherboards, this was just a standalone option in the CMOS without that name. And on even older motherboards, you could set that with a jumper on the board.

              Either way, enabling ErP to save power should NOT be a problem with the PSU. If anything, you will be putting less of a load on the PSU's 5VSB rail, so that should be even better for it.

              Thus, I am thinking you may have a motherboard issue. The only way to know for sure is to try another power supply and see what happens then. Also, must have repeatable results. So if you try a new PSU, then try booting the PC at least 10 times with ErP enabled and 10 times with ErP disabled. Of course, let the PC cool down between each power cycle and also monitor the temperature in your room to see if there is any correlation to that.

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                #27
                Re: Is Seasonic SS-660KM PSU ErP Ready

                @Stefan

                Thank you all for those suggestions. I have a few Rubycons 6.3V/3300uF MBZ from when I was recapping my old GA-8IPE1000-G motherboard. But the cap date is something from 2006 I think. Anyway, I do have that one laying around should i manage to disassemble the PSU.
                Other caps would have to be ordered. Any sugestions on those, or is KZH mandatory (I think the original ones were the same)?

                This PSU has an auto fan switch. I cannot select whether it will use the fan or not, it starts the fan if the PSU reaches certain temperature (probably has some sort of a sensor). But most of the time this PSU was not stressed and therefore worked in non-fan mode. I do not use the PC for heavy gaming. Plus, the motherboard is 2 years old, again, not being stressed.

                @Momaka

                I have only one SS-400ET PSU laying around, but I am uncertain that its 400W power wil be enough for powering all the components. I will do some testing.
                The two small caps under that big one are both Rubycons. I could not read the ratings due to this white residue over them, but I could see on one that they were YXG series.
                Last edited by UserXP; 10-15-2017, 03:41 AM.

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                  #28
                  Re: Is Seasonic SS-660KM PSU ErP Ready

                  Another thing I have tested a few minutes ago. When ErP is enabled, PC powers on normally. There is no power to the USB ports. However, I then disabled the ErP and shut down the PC. I took an older Kingston flash drive which has an activity LED on in. So, while the PC is off, when I plug this flash drive into the front USB 3.0 port, notnig; when I plug it into the adjacent 2.0 port, the drive's LED starts to flash rapidly as if it was doing something in overspeed; when I plug it into the second front 2.0 port (right next to the "flashing one"), nothing happens, the drive is calm. This does not happen when the PC is turned on and all three of the front ports behave normally then.

                  I do not have any USB devices connected to my PC with the current setup. Even my mouse and keyboard are PS/2 because they have served me quite reliably.
                  If the 5V rail in the PSU is somehow unstable due to the failing caps, could this be another sign of it? I could not test the back USB ports because they are a bit inapproachable for me to see the LED of the drive. I shall try and find a USB extension cord which I think I have somewhere laying around.

                  I also like this ErP mode because it turns off everything, so the mouse doesn't flash red all day (and night). It looks like this PSU model is capable of doing it, even though it is not stated anywhere on its package, casing, website, or answered by SeaSonic for that matter (which was the original source of my uncertainty). Is that 5V line in the PSU also "inactive" during the "ErP-enabled off state"?
                  Last edited by UserXP; 10-15-2017, 03:32 AM.

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                    #29
                    Re: Is Seasonic SS-660KM PSU ErP Ready

                    i actually think it's the startup-cap for the main supply in the psu.

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                      #30
                      Re: Is Seasonic SS-660KM PSU ErP Ready

                      Originally posted by UserXP View Post
                      If the 5V rail in the PSU is somehow unstable due to the failing caps, could this be another sign of it?
                      Is that 5V line in the PSU also "inactive" during the "ErP-enabled off state"?
                      All power from psu while the computer turn off, comes from 5vsb rail.
                      Not 5v rail.
                      It's different rail.

                      and yes, erp disable this rail, there's no 5vsb while computer turn off.
                      The same condition while you switch off to 0 the psu.

                      I've already heard many seasonic's psu has this problem, have to switch off the psu to 0 before it's turn on.
                      The supervisor ic fail to reset the state to zero condition while computer shutdown, so it's need to switch off.

                      Why?
                      The failure of capacitor in 5vsb line, and/or capacitor near supervisor ic..maybe..
                      Last edited by Quaddro; 10-15-2017, 08:54 AM.

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                        #31
                        Re: Is Seasonic SS-660KM PSU ErP Ready

                        Originally posted by UserXP View Post
                        Another thing I have tested a few minutes ago. When ErP is enabled, PC powers on normally. There is no power to the USB ports. However, I then disabled the ErP and shut down the PC. I took an older Kingston flash drive which has an activity LED on in. So, while the PC is off, when I plug this flash drive into the front USB 3.0 port, notnig; when I plug it into the adjacent 2.0 port, the drive's LED starts to flash rapidly as if it was doing something in overspeed; when I plug it into the second front 2.0 port (right next to the "flashing one"), nothing happens, the drive is calm. This does not happen when the PC is turned on and all three of the front ports behave normally then.
                        Yes, that proves what I think is wrong with your PSU.

                        The thing is that the PSU has a semi fanless mode. And that means that the heat of the +12V Rectifiers cooks the +5VSB caps.
                        With active fan Operation the temperature in this area would be much much cooler - loke 20-30K, maybe even more...

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                          #32
                          Re: Is Seasonic SS-660KM PSU ErP Ready

                          Originally posted by UserXP View Post
                          I have only one SS-400ET PSU laying around, but I am uncertain that its 400W power wil be enough for powering all the components. I will do some testing.
                          Do you have a power-hungry graphics card? Like GTX480, GTX580, GTX670/680, GTX770/780? (Or equivalent Radeon?)
                          Also, number of mechanical HDDs more than 4?

                          If not, that 400 Watt power supply will be more than enough. Heck, if all you have is onboard graphics, I could probably power that rig of yours with one of my 250 Watt power supplies.

                          I don't know why people still think they need a half kW PSU or more just for an i5/i7. Even the old gen i5s and i7's weren't that power hungry. Likewise, AMDs stuff uses just a little more power for their high-end CPUs, but it's still nothing a 300W PSU can't handle, if all you are using is onboard graphics or some low-mid-range GPU in a PC with 1-2 HDDs.

                          Originally posted by Quaddro View Post
                          and yes, erp disable this rail, there's no 5vsb while computer turn off.
                          The same condition while you switch off to 0 the psu.
                          Wrong.

                          No motherboard can make the 5VSB rail of a PSU turn off (except for a faulty one with a short-circuit). Think about it, how would that be possible? There is no communication between the PSU and motherboard, so it's not possible for the motherboard to tell the PSU to turn OFF the 5VSB rail. Besides, if that happened, then how would the motherboard turn ON after that? It surely needs power from somewhere for its logic.

                          Originally posted by Stefan Payne View Post
                          The thing is that the PSU has a semi fanless mode. And that means that the heat of the +12V Rectifiers cooks the +5VSB caps.
                          With active fan Operation the temperature in this area would be much much cooler - loke 20-30K, maybe even more...
                          Yup, that's true, unfortunately. Semi-fanless mode is such a bullshit feature.

                          That doesn't necessarily prove that the caps in the PSU (particularly the 5VSB) are bad, but it does increase their chances.

                          Thus, that's why I suggest trying another PSU first. If you can get repeatable results, then you can rule out whether the power supply or the motherboard is the issue.
                          Last edited by momaka; 10-15-2017, 12:32 PM.

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                            #33
                            Re: Is Seasonic SS-660KM PSU ErP Ready

                            Originally posted by momaka View Post
                            Thus, I am thinking you may have a motherboard issue.
                            The fact is that psu is turn on "normally" without erp after heated by hairdryer.
                            So i doubt it's about motherboard.

                            Originally posted by momaka View Post
                            No motherboard can make the 5VSB rail of a PSU turn off
                            Okay, i was wrong when i said turn off.
                            It's not turn off, then how about "almost turn" off because less than 1 w for standby?
                            I believe somehow this condition (very low wattage consumption) can reset the state of the psu to "zero" and ready to turn on.

                            As far as i know,
                            ErP/EuP is the standard set by the European Union for power consumption of a system in it's "off" state. The PSU must consume less than 1 watt at this stage.

                            There's a term "erp compliant" of psu..so both components is communicate.
                            Power Good signal, PS on, etc is another examples that motherboard and psu is really communicate..

                            But i agree with you.
                            Try to use another psu is the easiest way to find the main culprit.

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                              #34
                              Re: Is Seasonic SS-660KM PSU ErP Ready

                              OK. So (all of you), could you mark all the caps on the pictures that you think I should replace around that rail? I ask this as I am not familiar with what rectifiers are and how they look like, so as to not replace/remove the wrong cap.
                              Also, it would be great if you could suggest a replacement in terms of brand, but I'll again refer to the beforementioned eBay seller.

                              So even the Japanese caps can fail without visible marks, huh? If they were cooked, they surely didn't bulge one bit, let alone leaked. I bought this PSU specifically because of its good build and quality caps so I could have years of problem-free use, and here it is, just a few months after its warranty expired, it behaves in the course of capacitor replacement. I guess I'll be contacting egekecu again soon. I still haven't received my previous order of caps for my wireless headphones from him.
                              Last edited by UserXP; 10-15-2017, 01:28 PM.

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                                #35
                                Re: Is Seasonic SS-660KM PSU ErP Ready

                                Originally posted by Quaddro View Post
                                The fact is that psu is turn on "normally" without erp after heated by hairdryer.
                                So i doubt it's about motherboard.
                                Good point, I forgot about that part.
                                It still doesn't hurt to confirm the results with another PSU. There could always be more than one issue, so it's worth narrowing down.

                                Originally posted by Quaddro View Post
                                Okay, i was wrong when i said turn off.
                                It's not turn off, then how about "almost turn" off because less than 1 w for standby?
                                I believe somehow this condition (very low wattage consumption) can reset the state of the psu to "zero" and ready to turn on.
                                It still won't turn OFF the PSU's 5VSB rail.

                                What Erp/EuP probably does is turn off power to all non-essential devices on the motherboard when in soft-off mode - that means probably wake on LAN/RING/KEYBOARD too. Most likely, it just keeps the PS_ON circuitry alive and everything else OFF to save that kind of power. It's nothing new, though. You could do that on many old PCs through various CMOS settings. They just didn't have a fancy name for a single setting to turn all of these OFF back then.

                                Originally posted by Quaddro View Post
                                There's a term "erp compliant" of psu..so both components is communicate.
                                Power Good signal, PS on, etc is another examples that motherboard and psu is really communicate..
                                They are, but neither of these can turn OFF the 5VSB. PS_ON is just for the main power (3.3V, 5V, 12V, -12V) and PG is to signal to the motherboard that main power is up and ready.

                                Originally posted by UserXP View Post
                                OK. So (all of you), could you mark all the caps on the pictures that you think I should replace around that rail? I ask this as I am not familiar with what rectifiers are and how they look like, so as to not replace/remove the wrong cap.
                                This picture by Quaddro pretty much shows the type of small capacitors you are looking for.
                                https://www.badcaps.net/forum/attach...1&d=1507986082
                                There are three circled, but there may be more (I think there are, but they are not visible on that picture).

                                For example, in this picture, you can see two black caps to the left of the heatsink and two black ones to the right of that same heatsink:
                                https://www.badcaps.net/forum/attach...7&d=1507983388
                                They all appear to be Rubycon caps with a "K" vent on top.

                                Originally posted by UserXP View Post
                                Also, it would be great if you could suggest a replacement in terms of brand, but I'll again refer to the beforementioned eBay seller.
                                Depends on what brand and series they are. You mentioned the Rubycon were YXG series.
                                For those, you can use... well Rubycon YXG again. Though there are more choices than that, and these are:
                                Rubycon YXJ, YXG, ZL, ZLJ, ZLH, LZG
                                Chemicon KY, KYB, KZE, KZH, LXZ, LXY, LXV
                                Nichicon HE, PA (PW, PS, PM, PJ may also work, though their ESR isn't as low)
                                Panasonic FC, FK, FR, FM, FS
                                Last edited by momaka; 10-15-2017, 05:04 PM.

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                                  #36
                                  Re: Is Seasonic SS-660KM PSU ErP Ready

                                  Originally posted by momaka View Post
                                  Yup, that's true, unfortunately. Semi-fanless mode is such a bullshit feature.
                                  ANd people want that


                                  Originally posted by momaka View Post
                                  That doesn't necessarily prove that the caps in the PSU (particularly the 5VSB) are bad, but it does increase their chances.
                                  No, but I've read in Forums so many times about this issue already. Replacing the PSU always helps.
                                  And the description of this issue points to some problems with the +5VSB Circuit.
                                  Its pretty classic failure - one you probably say only happens with Chinese/Taiwanese capacitors...

                                  Originally posted by momaka View Post
                                  Thus, that's why I suggest trying another PSU first. If you can get repeatable results, then you can rule out whether the power supply or the motherboard is the issue.
                                  No need for that.

                                  Sadly it seems like a rather common issue with the first and second Seasonic X and P Series PSU with Semi Fanless. You hear about this issue rather often, for whatever reason.

                                  Originally posted by UserXP View Post
                                  OK. So (all of you), could you mark all the caps on the pictures that you think I should replace around that rail?
                                  Start with the two small black ones below the +5VSB Transformer. Than the 6,3V/3300uF Cap.


                                  Originally posted by UserXP View Post
                                  Also, it would be great if you could suggest a replacement in terms of brand, but I'll again refer to the beforementioned eBay seller.
                                  Doesn't matter. Should be reasonably low ESR such as Panasonic FM, FR, FS, Nippon CHemicon KYB should be somewhat OK too.
                                  And don't order on ebay but a respectable seller.

                                  However, if possible, choose 12,5mm diametre caps instead. And maybe solder them in floating (like 0,5-1mm above the PCB)


                                  Originally posted by UserXP View Post
                                  So even the Japanese caps can fail without visible marks, huh? If they were cooked, they surely didn't bulge one bit, let alone leaked.
                                  There is a Document from Nichicon about Capacitor failure modes. Look for it.

                                  But _ALL_ Capacitors can fail without bulging...

                                  Bulging is some kind of catastrophic failure, according to that Nichicon document I mentioned...
                                  Originally posted by UserXP View Post
                                  I bought this PSU specifically because of its good build and quality caps
                                  The Problem with the "good quality caps" fairy tale is that you don't know (=can't know) if the caps are needed for an acceptable lifetime or not.

                                  It all depends on the enviroment the capacitor is used in. How hot it gets, how much ripple current it can endure and things like that.

                                  A good capacitor can only last if it is used under good conditions.
                                  If it is used under hostile conditions (like high ripple and high temperature), it won't last as long as a shitty/cheap capacitor that is used under great/optimal conditions.
                                  That's the Problem people tend to forget. And some Reviewers also try to push for that semi Fanless garbage...

                                  I hope we will see a "Semi Fanless Fallout" and those PSU will die left and right in a couple of years...

                                  Originally posted by UserXP View Post
                                  so I could have years of problem-free use, and here it is, just a few months after its warranty expired, it behaves in the course of capacitor replacement.
                                  Yes and in the end you could also have gotten a "worse quality" PSU with Teapo, ltec, Elite or su'scon caps with a great layout so the caps aren't stressed much...
                                  But you don't know that, you can't know that....

                                  Testing the stress of the caps and the 'normal operation condition' is rather hard work and pretty annoying...

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                                    #37
                                    Re: Is Seasonic SS-660KM PSU ErP Ready

                                    Concur with Quaddro. Also look for small electrolytics under that input common mode inductor between the power line filter and that main PC board.
                                    PeteS in CA

                                    Power Supplies should be boring: No loud noises, no bright flashes, and no bad smells.
                                    ****************************
                                    To kill personal responsibility, initiative or success, punish it by taxing it. To encourage irresponsibility, improvidence, dependence and failure, reward it by subsidizing it.
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                                      #38
                                      Re: Is Seasonic SS-660KM PSU ErP Ready

                                      Thanks, I'll look into available caps. I might see with TC about ordering from him, but I suspect that shipping cost will be more than the cap set. Which is why I'd try with that eBay seller.

                                      Yes, there were a few more small caps under the modular connectors board. They are all Rubycons. On that board there are sleeweless ones that look like solids. This PSU generally has a lot of caps.

                                      But let's try with the most suspected ones first. The ones already indicated by Quaddro. Please mark other as I have no idea what converter, inductors and lines are.

                                      Comment


                                        #39
                                        Re: Is Seasonic SS-660KM PSU ErP Ready

                                        Also, if the recapping occurs and proves to be a success, can I somehow mod the fan controller to work all the time at some speed, and not to depend on the internal temperature sensor to activate it? Just to make sure the new/existing caps won't cook again.
                                        I remember seeing on the SS-750KMs a fan switch that would allow the fan to either be on all the time, or on when necessay.

                                        My god, this topic changed from ErP support to PSU troubleshooting. Not that ErP had no impact on the tests, though.

                                        I couldn't find a suitable spare PSU or get one from anybody as most of my friends have PSUs in their cases. I am not sure whether to try with the SS-400ET that I have or not. It has two 12V rails 17A each and I am not sure my GTX 970 card would like that, or the PSU, for that mater. The last I would want is to cause additional damage.

                                        Comment


                                          #40
                                          Re: Is Seasonic SS-660KM PSU ErP Ready

                                          Originally posted by UserXP View Post
                                          Also, if the recapping occurs and proves to be a success, can I somehow mod the fan controller to work all the time at some speed, and not to depend on the internal temperature sensor to activate it?
                                          Yes, most likely should be a way to modify the controller. Though if it uses some IC, then the easiest thing would be to add two diodes: one to feed the fan from the 5V rail (so the fan is always turning slow) and one to feed the fan from the fan controller, in case the fan controller wants to turn it faster for whatever reason.

                                          But I guess we can get into the details of this once the PSU is working properly again.

                                          Originally posted by UserXP View Post
                                          I couldn't find a suitable spare PSU or get one from anybody as most of my friends have PSUs in their cases. I am not sure whether to try with the SS-400ET that I have or not. It has two 12V rails 17A each and I am not sure my GTX 970 card would like that, or the PSU, for that mater. The last I would want is to cause additional damage.
                                          GTX 970 is only 145 Watts TDP (unless you have it overclocked A LOT). So if your CPU is 125W TDP worst case, you're looking at around 270 Watts from the 12V rail. Add 30 Watts for HDD, optical, and fans... so expect around 300 Watts peak from the 12V rail. If your 400W Seasonic PSU supports that much, it should work fine. May run a little warm and possibly not so happy if you throw a 10-hour gaming session at it in hot weather... but other than that, it should be plenty for testing.

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