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Old 10-27-2015, 08:15 PM   #21
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Default Re: Samxon capacitor quality discussion (spin-off from OCZ Bug Zapper thread)

Quote:
Could there both be *actual* Samxon caps (the ones you use), and really good fakes from someone like Crapxon?
"Fake" Samxons are more likely from Samson (AKA Samcon?). Samxon did release a statement some time back cautioning buyers against fakes. As did Nichicon, Rubycon, and Chemi-con. The matter is more complicated than that, though, because all these Chinese brands are so inconsistent to begin with. They don't do any QC testing and buy whatever's available on the market, and the grade of chinese aluminum and electrolyte will vary from batch to batch. So there is no determining how long crapacitors will last - only that they are not worth the risk. To make matters even more complicated, there always exists the possibility that early HMs and HNs were fake because Nichicon is an very high quality manufacturer. But then what about KZGs and KZJs? We may never know without sending samples to the manufacturers. You would think that OEMs get their capacitors and components from authorized distributors or straight from the manufacturer, but that may not always be true for whatever reason.

Quote:
And don't forget the bean-counters (*cough* Samscum), who proclaim "both series have the same specs, so use the cheaper ones."

On paper, and only on paper, is that true.

As I've stated previously, Nichicon VRs worked while testing devices, when either waiting for the correct caps or to determine if said device was even worth fixing. I've done this.

Now consider two supposedly equal series- one from capxon/ltec, and the other Nichicon. Supposedly equal, meaning can size, ripple current/ESR, capacitance/voltage, as well as endurance. Taken under the same ambient conditions, the junkers blow after a year (hermeis in LCD monitors), yet the "equalivalent" Nichicons outlast the computer that LCD is connected to. If the were equal, they'd also merely last a year.

The datasheets are LYING.
Well, they are at the very least highly exaggerating about the capability of their caps so as to look reputable. But there is more to it than that - dreck quality aluminum and electrolyte can easily cause outgassing on the shelf, operating temperature, voltage, and ripple current need not be anything but an accelerating factor. So I think they also get away with those "endurance" tests because they are only done for thousands of hours at the most, not hundreds, and tens and hundreds of thousands of hours is more than enough time for poor electrolyte to break down by its lonesome. Also, I think that LTEC is MUCH better quality than CapXon, as Delta are capable of prolonging the life of LTEC but not CapXon.

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Old 10-27-2015, 09:28 PM   #22
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Default Re: Samxon capacitor quality discussion (spin-off from OCZ Bug Zapper thread)

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Well, they are at the very least highly exaggerating about the capability of their caps so as to look reputable. But there is more to it than that - dreck quality aluminum and electrolyte can easily cause outgassing on the shelf, operating temperature, voltage, and ripple current need not be anything but an accelerating factor.
Like those boxes of unused motherboards that all blew their caps?

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So I think they also get away with those "endurance" tests because they are only done for thousands of hours at the most, not hundreds, and tens and hundreds of thousands of hours is more than enough time for poor electrolyte to break down by its lonesome.
Real-world use involves many thousands of hours with the electrolyte in contact with the aluminum, as well as power-on-hours. IOW, crapxon may actually test for 4,000 hours in one shot, with minimal failures. But, just as with the wendells, cchissis, hermeis, etc, side-reactions with impurities present will kill a cap, without it even soldered to a board.



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Also, I think that LTEC is MUCH better quality than CapXon, as Delta are capable of prolonging the life of LTEC but not CapXon.
With transformer/inductor rations "just right," duty cycle can be increased for the same power output; rather than high-amplitude, short duration current pulses (integrated into regulated output voltage),with medium-amplitude, medium duration being preferred. With a PFC booster, this is even more practical; the switcher is fed a regulated DC voltage, thus removing it from the effects of low line voltage. Which actually helps those output caps; the SMPS, by way of nearly constant input voltage, can now run at nearly constant duty cycle. Allowing for losses plus some margin for regulation, we can now increase duty cycle even further- even more ideal for the output caps.
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Old 10-27-2015, 10:51 PM   #23
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Default Re: Samxon capacitor quality discussion (spin-off from OCZ Bug Zapper thread)

Quote:
Real-world use involves many thousands of hours with the electrolyte in contact with the aluminum, as well as power-on-hours. IOW, crapxon may actually test for 4,000 hours in one shot, with minimal failures. But, just as with the wendells, cchissis, hermeis, etc, side-reactions with impurities present will kill a cap, without it even soldered to a board.

Yes, Hermei/Asiacon, Chhssi, Wendell, YEC, CapXon, Choyo, Jackcon, Teapos, and pre-Teapo merger G-Luxon are all known to do that. In other news, Fuhjyyu is also known to do that. KZGs/KZJs are also known for that, so their electrolyte must be extremely messed up or something really critical snuck past NCC during the QC testing phase. As for why it happens, the crap aluminum is amorphous and the highly aqueous electrolyte without the proper neutralizers and cathode depolarizers will attack and destroy the aluminum oxide film on the shelf, converting the aluminum into hydroxide and causing the resulting formation of hydrogen gas...

Quote:
With transformer/inductor rations "just right," duty cycle can be increased for the same power output; rather than high-amplitude, short duration current pulses (integrated into regulated output voltage),with medium-amplitude, medium duration being preferred. With a PFC booster, this is even more practical; the switcher is fed a regulated DC voltage, thus removing it from the effects of low line voltage. Which actually helps those output caps; the SMPS, by way of nearly constant input voltage, can now run at nearly constant duty cycle. Allowing for losses plus some margin for regulation, we can now increase duty cycle even further- even more ideal for the output caps.
Yes, I think the output capacitors would like a more consistent duty cycle. I'm pretty sure the voltage spikes (or fluctuating input voltage) don't help their lifespan. Still, Samxon GF seem to go bad and hatch whether they run toasty or chilly.

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Old 10-27-2015, 11:29 PM   #24
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Default Re: Samxon capacitor quality discussion (spin-off from OCZ Bug Zapper thread)

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Originally Posted by Wester547 View Post
Yes, Hermei/Asiacon, Chhssi, Wendell, CapXon, Choyo, Jackcon, Teapos, and pre-Teapo merger G-Luxon are all known to do that. In other news, Fuhjyyu is also known to do that.
You know, that is funny, but antecPimp was trying to tell everyone that "increasing output ripple is normal with age- it means you need a new power supply."

"Suuurre!" We all ran out and bought new antecs, complete with junk-in-the-box fuju-joos, didn't we?

Remember that?



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KZGs/KZJs are also known for that, so their electrolyte must be extremely messed up or something really critical snuck past NCC during the QC testing phase.
Except for those series, it's rather unlike them. KZGs/KZJs seem to still be suspect, even recently, yet the HM/HN problem only existed for ~3 years.

How many boards were junked because of "unfixable oddities," when it was really those KZGs/KZJs?

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Originally Posted by Wester547 View Post
As for why it happens, the crap aluminum is amorphous and the highly aqueous electrolyte without the proper neutralizers and cathode depolarizers will attack and destroy the aluminum oxide film on the shelf, converting the aluminum into hydroxide and causing the resulting formation of hydrogen gas...
See PDFs. Or get some lye and aluminum foil.

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Originally Posted by Wester547 View Post
Yes, I think the output capacitors would like a more consistent duty cycle. I'm pretty sure the voltage spikes (or fluctuating input voltage) don't help their lifespan. Still, Samxon GF seem to go bad and hatch whether they run toasty or chilly.
Even as I read that, I saw "Capxon GF." Well, what's the difference?
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Old 10-28-2015, 11:17 AM   #25
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Default Re: Samxon capacitor quality discussion (spin-off from OCZ Bug Zapper thread)

hi guys
i just replaced a samxon 2200uf from an acer x223w monitor

and 3 capxon and 1 teapo from a viewsonic vx2025wm
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Old 10-28-2015, 11:52 AM   #26
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Default Re: Samxon capacitor quality discussion (spin-off from OCZ Bug Zapper thread)

Series, manufacturing date, working hours and temperature?
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Old 10-28-2015, 12:36 PM   #27
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Default Re: Samxon capacitor quality discussion (spin-off from OCZ Bug Zapper thread)

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Per Hansson: I think they have their own aluminium foils and bought the electrolyte. Just look at the GC, GD - they have 100% same specs as Nichicon caps. Everybody can make aluminium foils (though not everybody pure enough) but the elctrolyte is what chinese makers have been failing at.
To clarify again what I mean is where they source the aluminium, it makes a big difference if it's "regular grade" bought in mainland China.
Compared to "regular grade" bought in Japan.
That is to say in my own opinion a large reason for so many crap caps existing is that they don't have good control over the quality of the aluminium they purcache.
And just for what it's worth Samxon owns two aluminium foil factories:
http://www.manyue.com/facilities.html#aluminum

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My stock of Samxon caps is old, and the caps I buy nowdays are mostly from Elfa Sweden and of the major Japanese brands.
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That's... odd. Not that I'm doubting your skills, but rather the luck you've had with the Samxons.

You're getting your stock from electronic component houses, like we do here with Mouser, Digikey, etc, yet those caps have been fine for you. That's what I'm puzzled by. With the Samxon failures and "smiliarities" they share with crapxon, I almost suspect your Samxons are not the same as the other "samxons" myself and others have seen.

Could there both be *actual* Samxon caps (the ones you use), and really good fakes from someone like Crapxon?

That's what I meant by not being sure of what you're getting...
The Samxon caps I bought have come directly from the Samxon factory.
Because back then I bought them from Big Pope who made some orders directly from the factory and sold them at very good prices compared to what I could get elsewhere.
Nowdays things have changed, back then the only "motherboard grade" capacitors Elfa stocked where a very small selection of Sanyo WX caps.
So in several of my older repairs it's been a mix of Sanyo (when I needed to complement my stock very quickly) or Samxon when I could wait a bit for the shipping from Hong Kong.
Nowdays Elfa has expanded their selection of low ESR capacitors significantly and I can buy most of the Japanese brands directly from them at good prices.
So that is what I do, just to clarify Elfa has never carried Samxon caps.

As for the possibility of fake Samxons yes that is certainly so, as I mentioned in my previous post and also provided a link to an old post with some examples.
Pretty much all of the large brands have copycats that try to ride on their success and to me the first time this happened for Samxon actually made me smile in a way.
Because it meant that the brand had gotten such a recognition that it was worth to copy it
Here is another example: http://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3099

I'm posting this long list of quotes but have added an addition I found from Big Pope where he claims to have asked Samxon about this and their reply is that they never made a "GL" brand:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Behemot View Post
"beside couple bad series as a whole (GF, GK)"
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Originally Posted by Wester547 View Post
And GL... unless, of course, GL is a counterfeit series.
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Originally Posted by kaboom View Post
I see what you did. You are not shooting from the hip by suggesting GLs are fakes-of-fakes.
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Originally Posted by Per Hansson View Post
Actually there do exist several companies that make counterfiet Samxon caps.
Well I guess it could be said it's just a coincidence in the naming and model scheme (Samson has for example a X-CON brand which is Samxon's Polymer series).
But just like "Rulycon" it has to be a pretty big "coincidence"
Take a look here to see what Samxon actually manufactures:
http://www.manyue.com/samxon_series_chart.html
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Pope View Post
Thank you for your information. I have asked Man Yue directly, they never produce GL series in their histroy, so i trust GL is fake Samxon.
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Old 10-28-2015, 12:45 PM   #28
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Default Re: Samxon capacitor quality discussion (spin-off from OCZ Bug Zapper thread)

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Series, manufacturing date, working hours and temperature?
Its a green Samxon cap.... So its either a Gf or Gk would surprise me.
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Old 10-28-2015, 01:05 PM   #29
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Default Re: Samxon capacitor quality discussion (spin-off from OCZ Bug Zapper thread)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Per Hansson
I'm posting this long list of quotes but have added an addition I found from Big Pope where he claims to have asked Samxon about this and their reply is that they never made a "GL" brand:
Thanks for that quote. I've seen that thread before, I don't know how I missed that. The only conclusion I can safely come to is that Samxon GLs are probably resleeved Samxon GFs from an unauthorized distributor. After all, some have even been desperate enough to resleeve 470uF 200V Teapo SKs as 680uF 200V Teapo "SWs"... I think this happens with many unauthorized distributors. They take many capacitors from crap manufactures, resleeve them in colorful and shiny sleeves and maybe add some varnish to the cans, etc... maybe trying to impress the idea upon people that all capacitors are created equal (obviously not true).
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Old 10-28-2015, 01:44 PM   #30
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Default Re: Samxon capacitor quality discussion (spin-off from OCZ Bug Zapper thread)

it's not green, it's black
serie sf, date, i don't know, monitor was built in 01 2008
working hours: well let's say 5 hours a day for 7 years
t: normal operating temperature for a monitor in a living room
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Old 10-28-2015, 05:24 PM   #31
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Default Re: Samxon capacitor quality discussion (spin-off from OCZ Bug Zapper thread)

Never heard of SF before so this is first time I see it at all
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Old 10-28-2015, 05:32 PM   #32
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Default Re: Samxon capacitor quality discussion (spin-off from OCZ Bug Zapper thread)

What my Ipad makes it look green guess just bad exposure on the image. I have alos never heard of the Sf series.
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Old 10-28-2015, 05:54 PM   #33
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Default Re: Samxon capacitor quality discussion (spin-off from OCZ Bug Zapper thread)

I'd guess that monitor has 23,000 - 26,000 running hours based on that. And the SF series seems genuine:

http://www.paullinebarger.net/DS/Sam...F%20Series.pdf

Looks like it's supposed to be the "long life" version of GF (in larger case sizes)... whatever that means.
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Old 10-28-2015, 06:03 PM   #34
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Default Re: Samxon capacitor quality discussion (spin-off from OCZ Bug Zapper thread)

It's a shame that Samxon's other series arent as popular, because we don't really know how good the quality is. BigPope had a lot of them listed in his catalog, (Like GT for example), but I've not been able to contact him.

Now as for GC/GD and their reliability, there are plenty of examples of 8mm part failures on Intel boards for example. And I've defended Samxon before, but that was before I saw the pics of their failure.

Having said that, I have used a fair amount of Samxon RS series and they are holding up well. And I can also vouch for the 10mm GC series. I have the 16V 3300uF ones in a server that must have at least a couple thousand hours of use.
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Old 10-28-2015, 06:04 PM   #35
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Default Re: Samxon capacitor quality discussion (spin-off from OCZ Bug Zapper thread)

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Nowdays Elfa has expanded their selection of low ESR capacitors significantly and I can buy most of the Japanese brands directly from them at good prices.
:cough: good prices :cough:

M8, I just looked at their "good prices". As for low-ESR (SMPS) goes, I checked my stock of D8 6.3-16 V caps against their. Everything they have is at least 3 times as expensive, half of the caps are not on stock. Not to mention they surely do not stock any D10 3300/16 caps. I have teh feeling the D10 stock situation will be similar. Are you really sure you don't want to check my stock next time so you can see really "good prices"?

Plus if I am not mistaken, you also have to pay VAT ransom, in such case it will be 4times as expensive. I think that saving about 75 % is quite some money…

mockingbird: Samxon caps are now mostly obsolete, there is no reason to stock the ordinary series but special can sizes. As for D8 goes, I have only seen bad Pannies, Rubycons. Not too many. They are amongst the most used D8 caps, I have not really seen that much of Chemi-Cons, Nichicons or Samxons in D8 on MoBos.

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Old 10-29-2015, 06:24 AM   #36
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Default Re: Samxon capacitor quality discussion (spin-off from OCZ Bug Zapper thread)

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It's a shame that Samxon's other series arent as popular, because we don't really know how good the quality is. BigPope had a lot of them listed in his catalog, (Like GT for example), but I've not been able to contact him.
I've used quite a few GT caps in monitors etc and never had a problem with them.

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Now as for GC/GD and their reliability, there are plenty of examples of 8mm part failures on Intel boards for example. And I've defended Samxon before, but that was before I saw the pics of their failure.
I have used up my stock of 8mm GC caps, none have come back...
Something always has to be said for a real shitty design where polymer caps should have been used instead.
Or perhaps as in Intel's case not a shitty linear regulator and a 5 year old almost deprecated chipset in a new design, examples:
http://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthread.php?t=14924
http://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthr...721#post286721

Quote:
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Having said that, I have used a fair amount of Samxon RS series and they are holding up well.
Yea I've also used quite a few of those without problems.
It's interesting because if you look at the chart I posted before.
We know that GF & GK are bad.
SF I don't have any idea about, never seen before.
But just like I would not call Rubycon MCZ bad from the one failure in the link I posted above of a shitty design.
I wont call it bad here either based on one failure.
That said both RS and GT which I have used extensively seem to be based off SF, which in turn is based on GF which is a bad design.
But I think they fixed the series after GF, look at this old quote from Big Pope:
Quote:
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Actually, no need surprise for this matter. This is not the first time i saw Samxon GF 470uF 16V/25V failure on some hot hardwares, like LCD monitors. GF series is the old series(the first type) of low ESR caps and need more improves. See the Samxon Series Charts here -> http://www.manyue.com/samxon_series_chart.html

By this reason, i always have some vigilance for GF series and sell GF series very carefully. I never get any stock of GF series, except 330uF 35V D10mm, which i got the stock on end of last year, because i want to test it on some Gigabyte motherbaords.

I have installed much of Samxon GF 330uF 35V on some Gigabyte old motherbaords from DEC 2006 till to now. There is no any failure.
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:cough: good prices :cough:
Behemot: "Good prices" is of course relative.
The store Elfa is a Swedish distributor, so there is no added import tax, and quick shipping.
That is the main advantage for me, because if I don't already have a cap in stock and need it for a repair I usually need it very quickly...
Though they recently moved their warehouse from Sweden to the Netherlands.
They claim it will not affect shipping times but we will see...

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Old 10-29-2015, 06:27 AM   #37
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Default Re: Samxon capacitor quality discussion (spin-off from OCZ Bug Zapper thread)

Airmail over Europe usually takes couple days. Does not depend if from Prague or somewhere in Netherlands.
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Old 10-29-2015, 09:31 AM   #38
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Default Re: Samxon capacitor quality discussion (spin-off from OCZ Bug Zapper thread)

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I have used up my stock of 8mm GC caps, none have come back...
Something always has to be said for a real shitty design where polymer caps should have been used instead.
Or perhaps as in Intel's case not a shitty linear regulator and a 5 year old almost deprecated chipset in a new design, examples:
http://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthread.php?t=14924
http://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthr...721#post286721
http://www.badcaps.net/forum/showpos...2&postcount=12
http://www.badcaps.net/forum/showpos...&postcount=172
http://www.badcaps.net/forum/showpos...&postcount=167
http://www.badcaps.net/forum/showpos...&postcount=164

Cases like that make me nervous about GC and even GD (there are some more instances of failed GDs if you look around the forum). Especially the one where 400+ units went bad in a year where the Rubycons were still okay. If a good company like Nippon Chemi-con managed to foul up their ultra-low ESR grade of lytics, I wouldn't be taken aback if Samxon had some issues with their own grade of lytics. Or maybe they just had a bad batch.

Quote:
Yea I've also used quite a few of those without problems.
It's interesting because if you look at the chart I posted before.
We know that GF & GK are bad.
SF I don't have any idea about, never seen before.
But just like I would not call Rubycon MCZ bad from the one failure in the link I posted above of a shitty design.
I wont call it bad here either based on one failure.
That said both RS and GT which I have used extensively seem to be based off SF, which in turn is based on GF which is a bad design.
But I think they fixed the series after GF, look at this old quote from Big Pope:
Here is another case of failed SFs. Samxon may be more like Taicon. Taicon only have a couple series that fail with disconcerting frequency - HD and HI (equal to HM, and possibly HL, equal to HN). Otherwise, unless they overheated, Taicon seem to do well enough. Nichicon owns 37% of Taicon - enough to put them ahead of most of the Taiwanese and Chinese brands. With that said, Taicon is actually on the -bad- listing here and Samxon isn't.

I don't think Rubycon MCZ is bad but weak. They are sensitive enough to heat to be less than desirable in locations that run hot.

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Old 11-08-2015, 12:52 PM   #39
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Default Re: Samxon capacitor quality discussion (spin-off from OCZ Bug Zapper thread)

Okay, I hate to double post, but I was wrong. Man Yue do get their aluminum foil from Japan, so the fault must lie within their electrolyte:

http://www.jcc-foil.co.jp/eng/company/outline.html

Taicon hold claim to having sourced their aluminum foil from the same company since 1995, by the by. Samwha (a Korean joint venture established with Nichicon in 1973) also claims that they import their aluminum from Japan.... that I have a bit of a harder time giving credence to.

There is another company called Liton which unfortunately is an offshoot of Lelon. They produce and manufacture their own aluminum in Taiwan, and Toshin Kogyo are one of their customers (but they also import their aluminum from Japan via JCC).

Last edited by Wester547; 11-08-2015 at 02:20 PM..
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Old 11-08-2015, 07:24 PM   #40
mockingbird
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Default Re: Samxon capacitor quality discussion (spin-off from OCZ Bug Zapper thread)

I wonder how varied characteristics of aluminum/electrolyte quality have an effect on the cap.

Let's focus on KZE-class series. I've read recently that that was the first major evolution in low ESR caps, in that it employs an aqueous electrolyte, but is stabilized with a proprietary formula. Let's examine some of the contenders:

UCC KZE - Reliable, very few reports of failure (and only then under extreme conditions). Do not bulge in storage
Nichicon HD - Also reliable, but 8mm variants have been found to bulge in storage
Rubycon ZL - As reliable as KZE. No known reports of any bizarre failures
Panasonic FM - As reliable as KZE, perhaps even superior
Sanyo WX - Not as reliable as KZE, sensitive to heat?
Illinois KXM - Probably as good as KZE
Nic NRSG - Probably as good as KZE. No personal experience whatsoever with brand
Samxon SH/SK - Do these even exist? The only Samxon capacitors I ever see in equipment are high-voltage primaries or dud series like GF. Someone should open up their X-CON polymers and compare them to UCC parts.

Now the question is, when does a KZE-class cap hold up better? When the aluminum is purer, or when the electrolyte is more stable? In an aqueous cap, I would assume that the electrolyte is more important. But non-aqueous series like PW/LXZ/FC class knock-offs might hold up better with purer aluminum, even if the electrolyte is less stable.

So it's not that simple. It's a shame Pete from CA isn't that active here anymore. I'm sure he'd have some great insight on this.
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