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    #1

    8600GT graphics - cap suggestion needed

    I replaced the bad and bursted Sacon FZ 1000 and 1500 caps using some Rubycon MCZ/MBZ that I had and the board is back to life.

    But I want to replace the 470uF 16V as well since these will go soon if not already going.

    470uF 16v are Sacon FZ.
    - 8x12mm - ESR= 0.036 / Ripple = 1150

    Options:
    Rubycon MCZ 16V, 470uF, 0.021 ESR, 1340 ripple

    But I checked the Rubycon stock here and I do not see the 470uf on the listing page for Rubycon. However, I did have a link saved for the 470uF and it seems I can add them to the cart. TopCat is it okay to place an order for the 470uF 16V Rubycons?

    Is a polymer also an option? I notice the other caps on this card are Sanyo Polymer. Would the Sanyo/OSCON 330uF 16v be fine as a replacement for the 470uF 16V? Also I have seen some polymer caps on what looks like a black platform at the bottom of the cap. Is this 330uF like that or does it have pin leads? Also curious what the heck is that black platform and do this solder different?
    Last edited by jfcarbel; 12-20-2010, 11:28 PM.
    Tags: None
    #2
    Re: 8600GT graphics - cap suggestion needed

    Judging from this chart:

    Impedance is 0.36.

    Panasonic FM has a similar part but the ESR is 0.041. The 10mm part is a little closer at 0.038.

    So I suggest you get the 10mm FM if it fits. If not, the 8mm should also be ok.
    "We have offered them (the Arabs) a sensible way for so many years. But no, they wanted to fight. Fine! We gave them technology, the latest, the kind even Vietnam didn't have. They had double superiority in tanks and aircraft, triple in artillery, and in air defense and anti-tank weapons they had absolute supremacy. And what? Once again they were beaten. Once again they scrammed [sic]. Once again they screamed for us to come save them. Sadat woke me up in the middle of the night twice over the phone, 'Save me!' He demanded to send Soviet troops, and immediately! No! We are not going to fight for them."

    -Leonid Brezhnev (On the Yom Kippur War)

    Comment

      #3
      Re: 8600GT graphics - cap suggestion needed

      Originally posted by mockingbird View Post
      Panasonic FM has a similar part but the ESR is 0.041. The 10mm part is a little closer at 0.038.

      So I suggest you get the 10mm FM if it fits. If not, the 8mm should also be ok.
      Isn't ESR always supposed to be equal or lower? BTW, I have 3 of these to replace on the card.

      Comment

        #4
        Re: 8600GT graphics - cap suggestion needed

        The 10mm variety is 0.038 which is close enough. So you're gaining 0.006uF of capacitance. I think this is ok. The main thing is, will they fit?

        I do see that KZG also has precisely the 0.036 impedance rating, and Nichicon HM is 0.030. But I wouldn't take the KZG, because they are prone to failure, and the HM is a little bit too low.
        "We have offered them (the Arabs) a sensible way for so many years. But no, they wanted to fight. Fine! We gave them technology, the latest, the kind even Vietnam didn't have. They had double superiority in tanks and aircraft, triple in artillery, and in air defense and anti-tank weapons they had absolute supremacy. And what? Once again they were beaten. Once again they scrammed [sic]. Once again they screamed for us to come save them. Sadat woke me up in the middle of the night twice over the phone, 'Save me!' He demanded to send Soviet troops, and immediately! No! We are not going to fight for them."

        -Leonid Brezhnev (On the Yom Kippur War)

        Comment

          #5
          Re: 8600GT graphics - cap suggestion needed

          There are 2 sizes of 16V 470uF FZ, which I think is where the confusion is coming from.

          Assuming you have 8mm FZ, Rubycon MBZ will work as a replacement:
          https://www.badcaps.net/store/produc...products_id=51

          This product is still active in the badcaps.net store. It's on page 2 of the Rubycon list:
          https://www.badcaps.net/store/index....sort=2a&page=2
          Note that Topcat stocks MBZ, not MCZ (which you spec'd out) in that value.

          Rubycon MBZ specs are 36 mΩ ESR, and 1140 ripple. So ESR is an exact match, and ripple is 10 mΩ less. Usually you want the same or more ripple, but for this application it's close enough at 99%+ of the original rating. No manufacturer is going to make a design with such close tolerances. Besides FZ quality is so poor, they probably don't perform to their rated specs all the time anyway.

          If you have 10mm FZ, you will have to look elsewhere, as badcaps.net does not have anything that is low enough ESR/high enough ripple.

          The black plastic bases you note are surface mount capacitors. They solder on top of the board vs. through the board. Both polymer and electrolytic capacitors are available in surface mount and through hole styles. Some boards have capacitor spots with both connection options available, but usually it's either one or the other. FZ is through-hole, so you should replace them with other through-hole capacitors.

          Finally, be sure to replace ALL the FZ capacitors on the card, even if they have not failed yet. FZ is one of the least reliable capacitors, even amongst the other "bad" brands.
          Last edited by yyonline; 12-21-2010, 12:33 AM.

          Comment

            #6
            Re: 8600GT graphics - cap suggestion needed

            Originally posted by yyonline View Post
            There are 2 sizes of 16V 470uF FZ, which I think is where the confusion is coming from.

            Assuming you have 8mm FZ, Rubycon MBZ will work as a replacement:
            https://www.badcaps.net/store/produc...products_id=51

            This product is still active in the badcaps.net store. It's on page 2 of the Rubycon list:
            https://www.badcaps.net/store/index....sort=2a&page=2
            Note that Topcat stocks MBZ, not MCZ (which you spec'd out) in that value.

            Rubycon MBZ specs are 36 mΩ ESR, and 1140 ripple. So ESR is an exact match, and ripple is 10 mΩ less. Usually you want the same or more ripple, but for this application it's close enough at 99%+ of the original rating. No manufacturer is going to make a design with such close tolerances. Besides FZ quality is so poor, they probably don't perform to their rated specs all the time anyway.

            If you have 10mm FZ, you will have to look elsewhere, as badcaps.net does not have anything that is low enough ESR/high enough ripple.

            The black plastic bases you note are surface mount capacitors. They solder on top of the board vs. through the board. Both polymer and electrolytic capacitors are available in surface mount and through hole styles. Some boards have capacitor spots with both connection options available, but usually it's either one or the other. FZ is through-hole, so you should replace them with other through-hole capacitors.

            Finally, be sure to replace ALL the FZ capacitors on the card, even if they have not failed yet. FZ is one of the least reliable capacitors, even amongst the other "bad" brands.
            Thanks, I now realize I must have grabbed the MCZ spec from capking site.

            Diameter is not an issue since these are located separate from other caps. But height is an issue since one is located under the GPU heatsink. But the MBZ are small enough.

            However, I understand if the FZ is 10mm then the ratings are:
            10x12.5mm - ESR= 0.022 / Ripple = 1800

            I will need to get out some caps and compare and get back to this forum about the size of this FZ 470uF.

            Would the Polymer Sanyo badcaps has here be a good replacement? Since GPU gives off much heat then solid state would be a good choice. And I have read - "If your going to use Polymer (solid) caps, use about half the capacitance". So the 330uF would be about perfect since the voltage on the Sanyo/OSCON 330uF 16v matches.

            Oh and can you believe I did not realize there was a page 2 to that Rubycon listing. Doh!
            Last edited by jfcarbel; 12-21-2010, 02:07 AM.

            Comment

              #7
              Re: 8600GT graphics - cap suggestion needed

              Originally posted by jfcarbel View Post
              I will need to get out some caps and compare and get back to this forum about the size of this FZ 470uF.
              Measure with a ruler, or calipers are even better if you have them. If in doubt, post a clear photo of the board. Myself and other members can usually tell the size visually.

              Originally posted by jfcarbel View Post
              Would the Polymer Sanyo badcaps has here be a good replacement? Since GPU gives off much heat then solid state would be a good choice. And I have read - "If your going to use Polymer (solid) caps, use about half the capacitance". So the 330uF would be about perfect since the voltage on the Sanyo/OSCON 330uF 16v matches.
              The Sanyo polymer is 10mm, so that's only an option if 10mm caps will fit. Others can feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I wouldn't recommend lowering the capacitance here. Reducing capacitance applies only to VRM caps. If in doubt, keep the capacitance the same. Keeping the capacitance the same and switching to polymer is usually safe...within reason. Replacing a general purpose cap with polymer may not be smart. Replacing a low-esr cap in a computer with polymer of the same value works fine in my experience. Reducing capacitance when going to polymer only applies to VRM caps, as far as I know.

              Digikey sells 16V 470uF polymer capacitors in 10mm size. That's what I usually do when I encounter 16V 470uF FZ in 10mm size and height is an issue. There are 10mm electrolytic capacitors from other manufacturers that will work, but they will be much taller than the original capacitors. I like to support badcaps.net as much as I can, but nothing in the store at the moment will work for the 10mm FZ.
              http://search.digikey.com/scripts/Dk...me=565-3234-ND
              http://search.digikey.com/scripts/Dk...=493-3859-3-ND
              http://search.digikey.com/scripts/Dk...me=565-3234-ND

              Comment

                #8
                Re: 8600GT graphics - cap suggestion needed

                Ok, I checked and the size is 8mm, so I assume the MBZ sold here should be fine since the ripple is only off by 10.

                I did notice one other cap on the board, it has similar look of a solid polymer cap. but is in disguise since it has the "K" venting marks on the top. However, it does not have any markings that identify it as FZ as the others do. It is just marked as:

                69
                470
                16A

                So not sure what this cap is. It is 8mm like the other 470uF FZ's but looks different in that it is not blue markings on the polarity on top, but rather black. And there is only one like this on the board. I have 3 of the clearly marked 470uF FZ's.

                TopCat is their any reason you don't stock the better MCZ series for the 470uF's? I would think most would come here wanting the best quality caps to fix their boards right.

                Comment

                  #9
                  Re: 8600GT graphics - cap suggestion needed

                  Originally posted by jfcarbel View Post
                  69
                  470
                  16A
                  That's probably a Suncon cap, but I would need to see a photo to confirm for sure. Suncon is generally reliable, and made Sanyo caps for years.

                  Yes. MBZ is a perfectly fine replacement.

                  Comment

                    #10
                    Re: 8600GT graphics - cap suggestion needed

                    Suncon was a subsidiary of Sanyo and they made -all- of Sanyo's lytics.
                    - Sanyo lytics WERE Suncon caps.

                    Suncon in effect bought themselves from Sanyo.
                    Sanyo doesn't sell lytics any more but Suncon branded caps are still made by the same people in the same factory that made all the Sanyo lytics.
                    .
                    Mann-Made Global Warming.
                    - We should be more concerned about the Intellectual Climate.
                    -
                    Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
                    - Dr Seuss
                    -
                    You can teach a man to fish and feed him for life, but if he can't handle sushi you must also teach him to cook.
                    -

                    Comment

                      #11
                      Re: 8600GT graphics - cap suggestion needed

                      Does Suncon still produce electrolytics then?

                      Do you know where to get dasheets for the myriad of "W" series green Sanyo caps? Like WX and stuff like that?
                      "We have offered them (the Arabs) a sensible way for so many years. But no, they wanted to fight. Fine! We gave them technology, the latest, the kind even Vietnam didn't have. They had double superiority in tanks and aircraft, triple in artillery, and in air defense and anti-tank weapons they had absolute supremacy. And what? Once again they were beaten. Once again they scrammed [sic]. Once again they screamed for us to come save them. Sadat woke me up in the middle of the night twice over the phone, 'Save me!' He demanded to send Soviet troops, and immediately! No! We are not going to fight for them."

                      -Leonid Brezhnev (On the Yom Kippur War)

                      Comment

                        #12
                        Re: 8600GT graphics - cap suggestion needed

                        Originally posted by mockingbird View Post
                        Does Suncon still produce electrolytics then?

                        Do you know where to get dasheets for the myriad of "W" series green Sanyo caps? Like WX and stuff like that?
                        Only the name on the caps changed. Specs appear to be unchanged.

                        http://www.sunelec.co.jp/eng/catalog/catalog02.html

                        Comment

                          #13
                          Re: 8600GT graphics - cap suggestion needed

                          Yes Suncon still makes caps.
                          Yes only the name on them changed.
                          They seem to have kept the old series names as well.
                          .
                          The WG are an attractive option as MBZ and MCZ are going out of production.
                          .
                          Mann-Made Global Warming.
                          - We should be more concerned about the Intellectual Climate.
                          -
                          Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
                          - Dr Seuss
                          -
                          You can teach a man to fish and feed him for life, but if he can't handle sushi you must also teach him to cook.
                          -

                          Comment

                            #14
                            Re: 8600GT graphics - cap suggestion needed

                            Don't be too sure they're still in production.

                            I spoke with a lady at Samxon and she said that motherboard grade electrolytics like GC and GD are no longer in production. It's impossible to find a lot of GD parts, only GC is available.

                            The only sure bet is Nichicon HM/HN/HZ. Lots of stock still available, but something tels me that they're going to become very scarce in the future. Motherboards are switching to polymer, and no demand means no production. I don't think the repair industry can create enough demand to justify future production runs.

                            Do you guys have sources for Suncon that you would care to share with me ?
                            "We have offered them (the Arabs) a sensible way for so many years. But no, they wanted to fight. Fine! We gave them technology, the latest, the kind even Vietnam didn't have. They had double superiority in tanks and aircraft, triple in artillery, and in air defense and anti-tank weapons they had absolute supremacy. And what? Once again they were beaten. Once again they scrammed [sic]. Once again they screamed for us to come save them. Sadat woke me up in the middle of the night twice over the phone, 'Save me!' He demanded to send Soviet troops, and immediately! No! We are not going to fight for them."

                            -Leonid Brezhnev (On the Yom Kippur War)

                            Comment

                              #15
                              Re: 8600GT graphics - cap suggestion needed

                              PCBONEZ -

                              I can't find the Sanyo or Suncon "CG" series. Do you have any idea what it is?
                              "We have offered them (the Arabs) a sensible way for so many years. But no, they wanted to fight. Fine! We gave them technology, the latest, the kind even Vietnam didn't have. They had double superiority in tanks and aircraft, triple in artillery, and in air defense and anti-tank weapons they had absolute supremacy. And what? Once again they were beaten. Once again they scrammed [sic]. Once again they screamed for us to come save them. Sadat woke me up in the middle of the night twice over the phone, 'Save me!' He demanded to send Soviet troops, and immediately! No! We are not going to fight for them."

                              -Leonid Brezhnev (On the Yom Kippur War)

                              Comment

                                #16
                                Re: 8600GT graphics - cap suggestion needed

                                Retired Series. Can't find actual data sheet for them.

                                Did find a reference in a manual to the 16v 1000uF that gave the ESR as 0.150.
                                Seen the size of that one as both 10x15 and 10x16 mm. [Maybe they measured?]
                                Part number was 16MV100CG
                                This guy still has some.
                                http://www.tedss.com/16MV100CG

                                I think the CZ Series must have been their replacement. - See PDF.

                                .
                                Attached Files
                                Mann-Made Global Warming.
                                - We should be more concerned about the Intellectual Climate.
                                -
                                Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
                                - Dr Seuss
                                -
                                You can teach a man to fish and feed him for life, but if he can't handle sushi you must also teach him to cook.
                                -

                                Comment

                                  #17
                                  Re: 8600GT graphics - cap suggestion needed

                                  That would put them at a slightly higher ESR than CA. Thanks.
                                  "We have offered them (the Arabs) a sensible way for so many years. But no, they wanted to fight. Fine! We gave them technology, the latest, the kind even Vietnam didn't have. They had double superiority in tanks and aircraft, triple in artillery, and in air defense and anti-tank weapons they had absolute supremacy. And what? Once again they were beaten. Once again they scrammed [sic]. Once again they screamed for us to come save them. Sadat woke me up in the middle of the night twice over the phone, 'Save me!' He demanded to send Soviet troops, and immediately! No! We are not going to fight for them."

                                  -Leonid Brezhnev (On the Yom Kippur War)

                                  Comment

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