Regular multimeter to test for ESR?

[gonzo0815]

Re: Regular multimeter to test for ESR?

Well i think price is a mater of markets & competition. There is no need to buy anything from anyone, so i think this discussion is really worthless.

And i think it does make a huge difference if someone is a profesional or an hobyist.
A professional usually dos earn money, so if a device can save time, imore money can be made or simply someone could be more competitive.
And from my point of view, if you can handle the power of good equipment, it certainly will speed up the repair dramatically.

[starfury1]

Re: Regular multimeter to test for ESR?

well I4004 your entitle to your own opinions and by the looks of it nothing anyone says is going to change that


I stand by what I said above...
there are a myriad of circuits and ways to build one.

having one is useful, so for people starting out and not wanting to spend much money Go for it.
its the cheapest option to roll your own from salvaged parts

personally I think Bobs meter is good value for money and serves its purpose well
I own 2 of them

anyway like I said there are few threads on ESR meters so I'll leave it at that

thanks for posting what the circuit was,
I read that one ages ago so i'll have to re look at it


cheers

[i4004]

Re: Regular multimeter to test for ESR?

gonzo, it's not really about that; it's about getting SAME thing for less money.
if you're buying something in the store, do you buy same thing that's cheaper or the same thing that's more expensive at the other place?

also, hobbyist also earns money, but he may not be earning it from the repair, but from other job.
or, a man doing repair can be into diy and build his own analog meter. meters i linked are from electric engineers who made them from themselves for whatever reason.
so such discrimination makes no sense here. for "discrimination" take this definition:
"Treatment or consideration based on class or category rather than individual merit; partiality or prejudice"

i don't care what you do for living, i only care about your enthusiasm on the subject.
and pimping expensive digital meters where person said it's too expensive for him is not enthusiasm, it's commerce.


in the end, repairing electronics is dying business so any talk about competition is displaced. it's more and more about enthusiasm and not money being made from it at all.

tools can be expensive and worth the money indeed, but if you have SAME thing you'll get a cheaper thing, because to measure esr digital meter doesn't have real advantage.

if bob had a working analog design back in the day today we wouldn't have this discussion. then again, price would probably be too high just like now..heh...

starfury; it's real easy to change my opinion: you only need to prove digital meter has some sort of practical advantage over analog meter. like i said, anybody can send me caps they measured so i re-mesure them too. incase i'm wrong, i'll apologize, no problems.

and i never said bob's meter is bad. i just said you can have same thing cheaper. offcourse, some folks won't be in the mood to do diy, or whatever, they can surely buy whatever they want. spend 1000$ for all that i care.


but my posting here was in the context of orignal poster, who doesn't want to spend 80$.
in that aspect all those mentioning bob's meter are offtopic, because it's doesn't fit the bill. if somebody asks for advice about (for example) asus motherboard, do you start talking about gigabyte? so why mention more expensive than 80$ gear if op didn't want it?

also, don't put down analog meters as unprecise if you don't have any data to prove it.

essentially, to all those saying digital meters are good, i'm responding that analog meters are equally good. until proven otherwise.
(essentially anybody can do a test...take few resistors and check meter: if you have 1:1 relation(between readout of digital mulitmeter on ohmmeter scale and esr-meter readout) then meter is good. i know my analog meter does this because that's how it was calibrated)

that's my opinion, and it's pretty flexible: but it wasn't to be expected bob's gonna say analog meter is equally good as his design, was it?
so he'll be ignoring me for saying the truth. and again, if anybody percepts this not to be the truth, do prove me wrong, and i'll apologize.

[kc8adu]

Re: Regular multimeter to test for ESR?

well I4004 your entitle to your own opinions and by the looks of it nothing anyone says is going to change that


I stand by what I said above...
there are a myriad of circuits and ways to build one.

having one is useful, so for people starting out and not wanting to spend much money Go for it.
its the cheapest option to roll your own from salvaged parts

personally I think Bobs meter is good value for money and serves its purpose well
I own 2 of them

anyway like I said there are few threads on ESR meters so I'll leave it at that

thanks for posting what the circuit was,
I read that one ages ago so i'll have to re look at it


cheers

+1 on all counts.
i own 3 of them myself.
i did upgrade to the pomona tweezer probes though.

[willawake]

Re: Regular multimeter to test for ESR?

in the case that a circuit or unit is not performing correctly, the typical practice employed by all techs would be a process of elimination, however with an esr and capacitance meter the caps can be quickly eliminated from the fault finding and efforts concentrated on other parts.

still of course the benefit to the general user of this timesaving is not as much as to a professional tech where time is money. still others may be interested in a cheaper solution than the typical offerings available.

therefore it would be nice to steer the topic back to the ops question

[Bob Parker]

Re: Regular multimeter to test for ESR?

in the case that a circuit or unit is not performing correctly, the typical practice employed by all techs would be a process of elimination, however with an esr and capacitance meter the caps can be quickly eliminated from the fault finding and efforts concentrated on other parts.

still of course the benefit to the general user of this timesaving is not as much as to a professional tech where time is money. still others may be interested in a cheaper solution than the typical offerings available.

therefore it would be nice to steer the topic back to the ops question

At the end of one of my posts I said, "I agree that it's not necessary to spend a lot of money to measure capacitor ESR. There are quite a lot of simple designs which drive analog meters on the net, which would easily identify bad caps. High accuracy isn't needed because ESR has to rise to a very high value to cause problems in almost all circuits." Apparently no-one read that far.

To get back to the original question, no it is not possible to measure capacitor ESR with an ordinary DC ohm meter. If you simply enter -> esr meter schematic <- into Google, you will find many reasonably simple circuits which can be built from parts salvaged from junked equipment, which will do the job.

[starfury1]

Re: Regular multimeter to test for ESR?

Yes to the original question

it has basically been answered

no you cant use a DMM for ESR testing
(as it is lest wise)

you can check if a cap is shorted or possibly find out if its leaky electro.
but thats about it as it stands

The reasons behind this have also been covered, AC frequency/measurement vers DC resistive measurements of an MM

my original post was just trying to keep it short as there is like 7 threads going on ESR meters in the Test EQ section alone

As I said there are circuits out there I just don't know of any off hand for use with a Digital Multimeter,
(which may be the cheapest easy way to build something, an analogue meter movement is probably the most expensive part of the roll your own circuits...great if you can salvage one, saves a lot on the hip pocket..like $20:00 AU MU 45 type)

For example HERE is one using an an analogue multimeter
in Italian I think from this site
http://www.qsl.net/iz7ath/web/02_bre..._esr/index.htm

zandrax.... feel like doing a translation of that little bit of text
(either that or I've got to learn Italian and I think I'd be lousy at it)

from the freeyellow links above and posted in other ESR type threads
(the one you posted I4004 you built is in them too)

lastly if a posters technical abilities or skills level is known it helps with reply's

So volto post on what circuit you are going to build and feel free to ask any questions on it we are here to help if we can and none of us mind doing that.

Cheers

BTW
(I did read it actually Bob)

Probably why Bobs design gets posted or referred to is cause its "popular" good and comes in kit form which isn't too hard to construct
(so for a beginner a kit is probably easier to put together, if you know how to solder and can follow instructions)
End of story

[PCBONEZ]

Re: Regular multimeter to test for ESR?

Bob,
It is possible to mod the display circuit on your meter to display 3 digits (as in 3 after the decimal point) or would that be out of the range of circuity anyway?
- I don't mind creating a new PCB to do this.

I know that's out of the range of what you originally designed the meter for but it's not outside of the range of what some of us do. When I'm measuring a cap with ~.005 ESR I'd rather not see .00 on the meter.

Thanks.

.

[Bob Parker]

Re: Regular multimeter to test for ESR?

I've replied through the Private Message function. Please let me know if you didn't get it.

[zandrax]

Re: Regular multimeter to test for ESR?

For example HERE is one using an an analogue multimeter
in Italian I think from this site
http://www.qsl.net/iz7ath/web/02_bre..._esr/index.htm

zandrax.... feel like doing a translation of that little bit of text
(either that or I've got to learn Italian and I think I'd be lousy at it)

The text in upper right simply explains what ESR means:
Picture 2: ESR is a theorethical resistance in series to a capacitor; [ESR] grows as cap get older. An high ESR value prevents the capacitor from working as intended.

Words in circuit (from left to right):
- Pila means battery (in this case, a 9V alkaline one);
- Massa fittizia should mean dummy ground: I think is something acting as a voltage reference without being connected to ground at all;
- Uscita usually means exit, but connectors for multimeter plugs is more correct.

This circuit was pubblished in 2002 in Nuova Elettronica, issue 212, a magazine alike to Popular Electronics: if a pubblic library in my town still owns a copy, I can scan the article. I'll translate it too but, since I know only a few electronic terms, my translation can be inaccurate.
As in P.E., you can buy some parts directly from Nuova Elettronica's site: it shows two pieces for this project and I can't identify them (no picture and stupid description: needed for electrolytic esr meter), though I suspect the MO1518 is a metal box.

Let me know.

Zandrax

------
Note: tomorrow I'm going to attend a retrocomputing exibition, there are chances I'll read replies on monday evening. So don't hold your breath

[starfury1]

Re: Regular multimeter to test for ESR?

no real need to go to that level,
unless you feel like doing it out of interest..

but thank you for the translation, very kind of you Zandrax

I think is something acting as a voltage reference without being connected to ground at all;

yep, its a way of getting a bipolar (+-) PSU
from a 9 volt battery
+4V5 -4V5 for op amps.

So yeah "dummy ground" could be a term I suppose
a lot of the time grounds float and its only really a matter of what you term
(or agreed upon) as ground return or reference point anyway.

Thanks

Cheers

[Bob Parker]

Re: Regular multimeter to test for ESR?

no real need to go to that level,
unless you feel like doing it out of interest..

but thank you for the translation, very kind of you Zandrax

yep, its a way of getting a bipolar (+-) PSU
from a 9 volt battery
+4V5 -4V5 for op amps.

So yeah "dummy ground" could be a term I suppose
a lot of the time grounds float and its only really a matter of what you term
(or agreed upon) as ground return or reference point anyway.

Thanks

Cheers

I used to work on Italian equipment back when I was maintaining microwave radio communications systems so I know some of the techo terms.

There's almost nothing to translate on the schematic. In this context, 'Uscita' means 'output', 'Massa' means 'ground', 'Fittizia' would mean 'artificial'
so yes it's simply the ground reference derived from half the supply voltage by IC1-A as Starfury said.
All you really need to know is what current range the meter should be, and how it should be scaled (i.e. is it a linear scale or something else?).
None of this is very relevant to the original question, of course.

[starfury1]

Re: Regular multimeter to test for ESR?

'Fittizia' would mean 'artificial'
sounds good to me

oh and yes, not overly but since where here
it is an adapter for a mulitmeter
but not a specifically DMM
like I said there is plenty of "other" threads on ESR meters
thanks Bob for your input

Cheers

[zandrax]

Re: Regular multimeter to test for ESR?

Well, fittizia means "not real, fake or deceiving": since carico fittizio is translated into dummy load, I thought massa fittizia could be translated into dummy ground.
Uscita is output, as Bob correctly wrote (thanks Bob, I never thought to output), but in plain italian massa means weight and only in electronic lingo is a synonym for terra, ground.
Anyway, if you need something feel free to ask me.

Zandrax

[Bob Parker]

Re: Regular multimeter to test for ESR?

Hi Zandrax,
Thanks for all your help which we all appreciate.
I was going on my past experience with schematics and labelling of connectors etc on Italian gear I've worked on, "converting" into what English-speaking technicians would call the same things rather than what an accurate translation would be.
Certainly "fittizia" means "fictitious", as I found out when I put it through the Alta Vista Babelfish online translator.
This forum can be very informative most of the time.

[starfury1]

Re: Regular multimeter to test for ESR?

all said and done its a Claytons Earth...

"The Earth you have when not having an Earth"

(Earth in this case being ground, 0 Volts or return line)

Zandrax, Bob might twig to what I said
but like Graham Kennedy you probably won't so it was an advertising campaign we had in OZ some years back
meaning something that look like an alcoholic beverage but wasn't...non alcoholic

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claytons

I have modified that diagram with component values (as in the webpage) and the little bit of translation.

I have yet to have better look at it.
Got a question or 2 in my mind on it but I'll have to look into it later, anyway

Thank you to you Both for your help

Cheers

[zandrax]

Re: Regular multimeter to test for ESR?

Hi Zandrax,
Thanks for all your help which we all appreciate.

Don't mention it

I was going on my past experience with schematics and labelling of connectors etc on Italian gear I've worked on, "converting" into what English-speaking technicians would call the same things rather than what an accurate translation would be.

So it should have been a real job, since until late 1980's / first '90s most names were translated in Italian or even written in a different but same sounding name [good english knowledge was a rarity those days].

Certainly "fittizia" means "fictitious", as I found out when I put it through the Alta Vista Babelfish online translator.

Here fictitious means fake or simulated, not fabulous: true, Italian is a strange language [and Google Translate works better than Babelfish ...].

all said and done its a Claytons Earth...

"The Earth you have when not having an Earth"

(Earth in this case being ground, 0 Volts or return line)

Lol! The italian version could have been a tv ads jingle during '80s: it's nice.

Zandrax

[starfury1]

Re: Regular multimeter to test for ESR?

just on the ESR circuit link I posted above, here another link based on the same circuit
It a bit more informative as to whats what....Oh he calls it "Virtual Ground"
which from memory my OP Amp cookbook says....humm have to find that

http://personales.ya.com/sailor/ESR_meter/

This might be an easier place to start for anyone thinking of building and experimenting with the circuit.


Cheers

[volto]

Re: Regular multimeter to test for ESR?

Thanks for the replies and suggestions everyone. It's no use advertising Bob's (or anyone elses) ~$80 ESR meters, Like I said before, I'd like to spend less than $50, I might try building a simple one like suggested, but I don't have many junk parts, and although i can identify most of the symbols, I can't really read schematics very well. I dont have any education on electronics. Will the meter from a junked analog multimeter work for this? The meter is junk because it will peg out on any voltage over .01, its like it suddenly became very sensitive, don't know why. I'll post a picture of what i have later.

[i4004]

Re: Regular multimeter to test for ESR?

it probably will work, as page mentions adaptation if you need more deflection
"If the analog instrument needs more voltage then the optional resistor can be fitted which would increase gain."
(http://personales.ya.com/sailor/ESR_meter/)

another page on the same meter mentions
"the meter will be 500 microA F.S. but I've used a 1 milliA one adding a small NPN transistor as amplifier;"
(http://www.qsl.net/iz7ath/web/02_bre..._esr/index.htm)

you can figure out what meter is it by using 1.5v battery, trimmer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trimmer_%28electronics%29) and multimeter(digital or analog).
connect them like this

adjust trimmer so that meter is at full deflection, read the current off the dmm(set to 'dc amps') or analog multimeter and you know which one is it...
can't really remember which trimmer i used...too high values will make adjustment harder...1, 5 or 10k should do...probably even 20k...

that way you can also see if meter is ok...changing trimmer slider position will change deflection...meter shouldn't sutck on any value...