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    #41
    Re: Another water pump automation project (suggestions ?)

    There's no money with water, it comes out of the well for free. If this was diesel, gasoline, food being pumped you could spend more than $10 on Aliexpress lol. If the budget is only for one relay, and the customer is providing other parts well good luck with that. You'll get boxed in and unable to make anything decent.

    That float has a ball inside to give some hysteresis I believe.
    Attached Files
    Last edited by redwire; 08-03-2022, 12:43 PM.

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      #42
      Re: Another water pump automation project (suggestions ?)

      So, there are different types of float switches. One can use a limit switch as a float switch. If you think about the float in a toilet bowl. The float goes down until it gets low enough for the value to turn on and then continues to operate until the float turns off the valve. Instead of a valve one can use a limit switch. So, the float would go down to a point that the limit switch opens. The limit switch would be on an arm to the float. The upward pressure of the float would have to overcome the arms force to close the limit switch. This then has a predictable on and off measurement and would not be subject to unstable condition of the water.

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        #43
        Re: Another water pump automation project (suggestions ?)

        here's a question.
        is the water on the pump inlet under *any* type of presure at all?
        can it free-flow slowly through the pump when it's off????

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          #44
          Re: Another water pump automation project (suggestions ?)

          From OP's pic, it's a submersible pump in the well, with solenoids to divert flow to either of the two tanks. Usually there is a backflow valve to prevent siphoning/water running back down into the well.

          One hassle is the tank filling can make a lot of turbulence, sloshing waves etc that make the float sensor malfunction.
          I have used a sprinkler kind of head, or a plastic fill pipe runs in and almost to the tank bottom and has holes drilled all around it. This stops the water falling down hard (on the float sensor) and it causes the water level to stay steady.

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            #45
            Re: Another water pump automation project (suggestions ?)

            Originally posted by stj View Post
            here's a question.
            is the water on the pump inlet under *any* type of presure at all?
            can it free-flow slowly through the pump when it's off????
            No, I don't think so: even though I haven't actually seen the setup myself, the guy told me the water inlet sits above the tank, so it's never submerged.


            Originally posted by redwire View Post
            From OP's pic, it's a submersible pump in the well, with solenoids to divert flow to either of the two tanks. Usually there is a backflow valve to prevent siphoning/water running back down into the well.
            Correct. Said check valve may have already been installed by the guy.
            Wattevah...

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              #46
              Re: Another water pump automation project (suggestions ?)

              Here is one of my simple designs for using a float and limit switch. Maybe it will trigger an idea for you. You will have to rotate it clockwise.
              Attached Files

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                #47
                Re: Another water pump automation project (suggestions ?)

                In this case, we're not going DIY though, since the guy already bought (and possibly installed) the float switches I showed.

                One possible issue I see with your idea is that it only works for small-ish tanks. If the tank is very deep, at least some part of the mechanism would have to be impractically long to reach the top (since you can't install a microswitch at the bottom of the tank underwater)
                Wattevah...

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                  #48
                  Re: Another water pump automation project (suggestions ?)

                  About what size are the tanks? As I mentioned, as long as the incoming water cannot pour down and hit the float sensors, or if there is not a lot of swirl and turbulence, they can work.
                  They are designed for sump pump applications, which do not have this problem. I hope this guy does not keep buying the wrong stuff.

                  Did you go with a smaller relay for the latching aspect?

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                    #49
                    Re: Another water pump automation project (suggestions ?)

                    Originally posted by redwire View Post
                    About what size are the tanks?
                    THIS big. A common sight around here. I think they're 100L each. The valves shall go where those manual valves are, either before or after them. You can see how the fill pipes run to the top.

                    Originally posted by redwire View Post
                    Did you go with a smaller relay for the latching aspect?
                    No, because I can't. Like I said: I'd need some way to UN-latch it and he only got 2 floats. I'd need 4 to do this, the way I picture it at least....
                    Attached Files
                    Wattevah...

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                      #50
                      Re: Another water pump automation project (suggestions ?)

                      look possibly a cubic metre .so 1000 litres

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                        #51
                        Re: Another water pump automation project (suggestions ?)

                        is it not possible to add a balancing pipe between the tanks ? then it should only need 1 pump and float .

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                          #52
                          Re: Another water pump automation project (suggestions ?)

                          Originally posted by petehall347 View Post
                          is it not possible to add a balancing pipe between the tanks ? then it should only need 1 pump and float .
                          That's how I would've done it from the very start, TBH: connect the two together at the bottom. Come to think of it, now that I look at it better, I think the same effect could be achieved by simply opening the bottom valves at the same time with no additional modifications....
                          Wattevah...

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                            #53
                            Re: Another water pump automation project (suggestions ?)

                            so sealed, but hopefully vented tanks and they are outdoors and exposed.
                            that adds to the problems

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                              #54
                              Re: Another water pump automation project (suggestions ?)

                              Originally posted by Dannyx View Post
                              In this case, we're not going DIY though, since the guy already bought (and possibly installed) the float switches I showed.

                              One possible issue I see with your idea is that it only works for small-ish tanks. If the tank is very deep, at least some part of the mechanism would have to be impractically long to reach the top (since you can't install a microswitch at the bottom of the tank underwater)
                              The beauty of this is that it is hung from the top. So, one can make it as long or short as one want to. The bottom of the outside tube does not need to go to the bottom of the tank. It just needs to go as far down as one wants the level of water to turn on.

                              The microswitch is installed at the top of the tank.

                              I have not shown the side walls of the tank this is just the float system installed at the top of the tank. The tank can be as long as you want it.
                              Last edited by keeney123; 08-05-2022, 04:36 PM.

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                                #55
                                Re: Another water pump automation project (suggestions ?)

                                I looked at the logic for the pump and fill valves and it's a bit weird.
                                It's like each tank has an empty/fill cycle, once empty the pump runs until it fills up.
                                But if you're filling one tank, and the other is 1/2 full, why not top it up too? Why not fill both until the FULL float switches trip on both tanks?

                                I still think you need a latch somewhere to stop the logic flipping out with noisy float switches. It's standard in PLC motor controls to use a latch function.

                                If both tanks were connected to make one tank, it would simplify things a lot.

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                                  #56
                                  Re: Another water pump automation project (suggestions ?)

                                  I have been following this post for awhile I am very interested in what solution you find for this

                                  I briefly work for a company that used those type of tanks and was trying to use them with float switches but continuously had over flow issues and it was because of the way they implemented the setup and did not want to change it so I did not try to find a solution for there issues with that setup

                                  I do not know if you can find a ( type of switch ) ( if can not find the exact one you are looking for you could add this and a small regulating valve for what ever cutoff height that you might want ) that is used in a washer machine water level detector and do something like this I am just thinking out loud this was one thing I thought of and wanted to try to solve there issues with there setup
                                  Last edited by sam_sam_sam; 08-06-2022, 05:06 AM.
                                  9 PC LCD Monitor
                                  6 LCD Flat Screen TV
                                  30 Desk Top Switching Power Supply
                                  10 Battery Charger Switching Power Supply for Power Tool
                                  6 18v Lithium Battery Power Boards for Tool Battery Packs
                                  1 XBox 360 Switching Power Supply and M Board
                                  25 Servo Drives 220/460 3 Phase
                                  6 De-soldering Station Switching Power Supply 1 Power Supply
                                  1 Dell Mother Board
                                  15 Computer Power Supply
                                  1 HP Printer Supply & Control Board * lighting finished it *


                                  These two repairs where found with a ESR meter...> Temp at 50*F then at 90*F the ESR reading more than 10%

                                  1 Over Head Crane Current Sensing Board ( VFD Failure Five Years Later )
                                  2 Hem Saw Computer Stack Board

                                  All of these had CAPs POOF
                                  All of the mosfet that are taken out by bad caps

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                                    #57
                                    Re: Another water pump automation project (suggestions ?)

                                    With a plastic tank, capacitive liquid level sensors that mount outside on the tank are popular.
                                    XKC-Y26/WS-03 can mount on a plastic pipe (with bracket) OP could use that on a vertical run and not bother sensing the tanks at all.
                                    XKC-Y25/WS-02 flat on the tank outside. Example use Ford Fiesta low coolant light but it's the WS-03 for some reason.
                                    Or available with entire controller. That Ali store is a bit expensive compared to others.

                                    But OP's tanks are outdoors in the rain, so the sensors would get wet. I think some of them are potted/waterproof.

                                    many youtube vids: https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=xkc+sensor
                                    Last edited by redwire; 08-06-2022, 12:50 PM.

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                                      #58
                                      Re: Another water pump automation project (suggestions ?)

                                      Originally posted by redwire View Post
                                      With a plastic tank, capacitive liquid level sensors that mount outside on the tank are popular.
                                      XKC-Y26/WS-03 can mount on a plastic pipe (with bracket) OP could use that on a vertical run and not bother sensing the tanks at all.
                                      XKC-Y25/WS-02 flat on the tank outside. Example use Ford Fiesta low coolant light but it's the WS-03 for some reason.
                                      Or available with entire controller. That Ali store is a bit expensive compared to others.

                                      But OP's tanks are outdoors in the rain, so the sensors would get wet. I think some of them are potted/waterproof.

                                      many youtube vids: https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=xkc+sensor
                                      Very useful information. I think one could also use hall effect sensors. Using a float on the side of the tank that has a magnetic material inside of it and the hall effect sensor on the outside. One has to be careful with the potting. one needs a potting material that is high enough resistance as to not affect the circuitry and has to be such as to not shrink when it cures.

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                                        #59
                                        Re: Another water pump automation project (suggestions ?)

                                        Originally posted by keeney123 View Post
                                        Very useful information. I think one could also use hall effect sensors. Using a float on the side of the tank that has a magnetic material inside of it and the hall effect sensor on the outside. One has to be careful with the potting. one needs a potting material that is high enough resistance as to not affect the circuitry and has to be such as to not shrink when it cures.
                                        I once encountered a magnetic level sensor of the same description in an ironing station. It was used to sense when the water level in the tank dropped too low or if the tank was removed entirely. It had a magnet stuck inside a piece of plastic inside the tank that went up and down with the water level. Water had gotten into the plastic shell and corroded the magnet which no longer "worked". The reed switch that sat on the outside wall of the machine near the tank no longer closed, so the station would always think the tank is missing and wouldn't run. I couldn't get the magnet out without breaking the tank open, so the only solution was to replace the whole tank and that got it going again.

                                        In the case of these large tanks, which I assume are fairly beefy plastic, a stronger magnet would probably be required to trigger a reed switch on the outside...which would also have to be water-proof.
                                        Wattevah...

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                                          #60
                                          Re: Another water pump automation project (suggestions ?)

                                          Those water tanks at 1,000L/275gal are large weight up to 1,060kg/2,332lbs.
                                          But they have a small 6" fill cap lid which makes putting sensor and fill pipe inside a hassle.
                                          .. uh make sure the stand is good for a ton, the legs might sink into the ground and the tank fall over.

                                          I noticed the two tanks are connected together at their outlet, but a closed valve is between them for some reason. It would be simpler with them connected together.

                                          Did you finish the plan for the pump logic? An ESP8266 is really good and what I'd use for something small and low cost like this, with a webpage. Before, I thought you were doing something industrial in a plant where the tanks and pumps are much bigger and a PLC is standard use.
                                          Attached Files

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