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Old 01-27-2020, 09:53 PM   #21
televizora
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Default Re: What TRULY Renders an Operating System Obsolete?

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Originally Posted by Curious.George View Post
The underlying assumption, here, is that the old "framework" (or applications) are somehow broken just by the existence of the "new".
No, they aren't. It's just that new functions would not be available. And sooner or later you will need the next version and will switch to it one way or the other.
For example, Flash has died. Now you use HTML5. They cut the support of Flash from all the major streaming websites.
One example - I used Office 2003 for many years. Switched to 2007 only to have decent support for the new formats. But now I use 2016 because it makes my life simpler with the new graph wizards that make building graphs simpler. And some other stuff...
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Old 01-27-2020, 09:55 PM   #22
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Default Re: What TRULY Renders an Operating System Obsolete?

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That message about support being ended, is actually downloaded from Windows Update and thus you don't have to worry about that.
It's like the XP EOL reminder.
At least with windows XP you could choose not to install and hide the EOL update. With windows 7 it comes bundled with the Security monthly (pms) quality rollup, so if you want the other updates you get the eol nag, But I understand it pops up once and you can check "do not show again".
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Old 01-27-2020, 10:00 PM   #23
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Default Re: What TRULY Renders an Operating System Obsolete?

/Offtopic/
I also don't like Windows 8, 8.1, 10...
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Old 01-27-2020, 11:06 PM   #24
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Default Re: What TRULY Renders an Operating System Obsolete?

...and at the risk of sounding redundant, loss of browser support is what will do-in an OS @ consumer level...

My Win7 HTPC's can run indefinitely for the tasks they do. They aren't patched at all, no connection to the outside world.... Someone explain to me why they'd ever have to be updated/upgraded. Same with my NAS, for its tasks, it can run until the hardware fails beyond repair... The only reason its not running windows 2000 is it needs 64 bit support. XP didn't truly die off until browser support ended by all the 'big dogs' (chrome/chromium, Mozilla, Opera, etc). Win7 still has a few years to go before death. I'll run my mainstream win7 machines until that time. After that, I do have a non w10 backup plan.

MSO for spreadsheets? LOL...I don't need the latest version of anything to type a letter for frack's sakes... office365 is as evil (counter-productive, bloated, spying) as win10 itself. Plenty of other office type programs out there (for linux or windows) that will do the same damn thing....
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Old 01-28-2020, 12:41 AM   #25
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Default Re: What TRULY Renders an Operating System Obsolete?

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MSO for spreadsheets? LOL...I don't need the latest version of anything to type a letter for frack's sakes... office365 is as evil (counter-productive, bloated, spying) as win10 itself. Plenty of other office type programs out there (for linux or windows) that will do the same damn thing....
I use Office 2019 (365) at work a lot... for what I do, it works well. Being able to share stuff via the cloud (onedrive) is nice, especially when nobody's SMB drivel letters seem to match (and idiots insist on using letters, not server names in local file email links).

Then again, I work for a medium sized employer (~1,000 employees across several plants in North America), so my (and my employer's) needs are very different than most of the people in this thread. Then again, we're also dumb enough to embrace a new PLM (product life management) system based on an effectively obsolete runtime (Silverlight, @#$%!) whose express intent was to improve the security of our proprietary information (and more importantly, our customers' proprietary information)...

At the end of the day, the job gets done... more than one way to skin a cat. Just some ways are better than others.
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Old 01-28-2020, 02:25 AM   #26
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Default Re: What TRULY Renders an Operating System Obsolete?

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No, they aren't. It's just that new functions would not be available. And sooner or later you will need the next version and will switch to it one way or the other.
For example, Flash has died. Now you use HTML5. They cut the support of Flash from all the major streaming websites.
One example - I used Office 2003 for many years. Switched to 2007 only to have decent support for the new formats. But now I use 2016 because it makes my life simpler with the new graph wizards that make building graphs simpler. And some other stuff...
Sadly Flash has not died, it lingers around like a bad smell. I shall be glad when it's gone for good.
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Old 01-28-2020, 10:34 AM   #27
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Default Re: What TRULY Renders an Operating System Obsolete?

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Sadly Flash has not died, it lingers around like a bad smell. I shall be glad when it's gone for good.
Reminds me of still not being able to pick up a 1440p monitor for $150-ish!
They often still act like 1080p is the best!
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Old 01-28-2020, 10:52 AM   #28
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Default Re: What TRULY Renders an Operating System Obsolete?

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I use Office 2019 (365) at work a lot... for what I do, it works well. Being able to share stuff via the cloud (onedrive) is nice, especially when nobody's SMB drivel letters seem to match (and idiots insist on using letters, not server names in local file email links).

Then again, I work for a medium sized employer (~1,000 employees across several plants in North America), so my (and my employer's) needs are very different than most of the people in this thread. Then again, we're also dumb enough to embrace a new PLM (product life management) system based on an effectively obsolete runtime (Silverlight, @#$%!) whose express intent was to improve the security of our proprietary information (and more importantly, our customers' proprietary information)...

At the end of the day, the job gets done... more than one way to skin a cat. Just some ways are better than others.
As I said on several occasions, this thread applies to the consumer market, not the corporate. Their needs are far different, as you verified for me.

Speaking of which, I hope the new job is going well, I havent heard much from you lately...
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Old 01-28-2020, 04:39 PM   #29
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Default Re: What TRULY Renders an Operating System Obsolete?

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Originally Posted by ratdude747 View Post
I use Office 2019 (365) at work a lot... for what I do, it works well. Being able to share stuff via the cloud (onedrive) is nice, especially when nobody's SMB drivel letters seem to match (and idiots insist on using letters, not server names in local file email links).

Then again, I work for a medium sized employer (~1,000 employees across several plants in North America), so my (and my employer's) needs are very different than most of the people in this thread. Then again, we're also dumb enough to embrace a new PLM (product life management) system based on an effectively obsolete runtime (Silverlight, @#$%!) whose express intent was to improve the security of our proprietary information (and more importantly, our customers' proprietary information)...

At the end of the day, the job gets done... more than one way to skin a cat. Just some ways are better than others.

Comparatively I work for an employer with over 50K employees, and the newest version of office we have is 2016 and many (including me) are still on office 2010 (they're doing Office upgrades along with Windows upgrades so those on Windows 10 are on office 2016 and those still on Windows 7 are on Office 2010).

We're also now paying Microsoft for extended support on Windows 7 due to some software (from IBM no less) still not being compatible with windows 10.

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Old 01-28-2020, 07:18 PM   #30
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Default Re: What TRULY Renders an Operating System Obsolete?

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My Win7 HTPC's can run indefinitely for the tasks they do. They aren't patched at all, no connection to the outside world.... Someone explain to me why they'd ever have to be updated/upgraded.
If some new media container/format was released/upgraded and you started encountering media encoded with that. E.g., an XP box would likely gag on some of the newer AVI and MKV CODECs.

There are a small number of W7 "bugs" that I would genuinely appreciate having *fixed* ad would consider an update *if* I knew they would be fixed in that update.

E.g., desktop icons "growing legs" and moving to new locations (or, not being remembered in their *current* position).

CIFS also has performance issues if you hammer on it really hard (e.g., transfer a few hundred thousand files occupying a few TB in one DnD operation and it will end up running at "floppy disk" speed...)

And, I am *so* tired of USB devices that refuse to eject even when you KNOW there is nothing "still open"!
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Old 01-29-2020, 06:26 PM   #31
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Default Re: What TRULY Renders an Operating System Obsolete?

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**************
You have my curiosity —>

How do you setup a computer system so you are not exposed to hackers and like and still surf the internet on one computer

How do you setup a computer system so you can get and read your email and go to there web page to view there products or is this asking to much

What operating system would you use
What programs would you use to keep you safe from predators

I have gotten away from using a computer to surf the internet and just use an iPad for this purpose

I personally do not like Windows 8 or Windows 10 for different reasons

I can tolerate Windows 7 for the most part

I like Windows XP for the reason that you pointed out and some other reason that you did not mention

But I do not think that you can surf the internet with this os very well anymore
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Old 01-29-2020, 11:02 PM   #32
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Default Re: What TRULY Renders an Operating System Obsolete?

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Originally Posted by sam_sam_sam View Post
How do you setup a computer system so you are not exposed to hackers and like and still surf the internet on one computer

How do you setup a computer system so you can get and read your email and go to there web page to view there products or is this asking to much

What operating system would you use
What programs would you use to keep you safe from predators

I have gotten away from using a computer to surf the internet and just use an iPad for this purpose

I personally do not like Windows 8 or Windows 10 for different reasons

I can tolerate Windows 7 for the most part

I like Windows XP for the reason that you pointed out and some other reason that you did not mention

But I do not think that you can surf the internet with this os very well anymore
We have one computer that is "online" 24/7/365 (THIS one). We use it for email and web browsing. There is no AV installed. Windows Update is disabled. The most recent Windows update was from June of 2017 -- manually installed when this disk image was built (verified, just now, by viewing "Installed Updates")

The machine sits behind a router with its own "external" firewall -- so I'm not dependent on Windows for that security.

Aside from the initial image, there are no backups of the computer.

We are careful about where we browse -- no pron, warez, etc. We never open email attachments -- even from "friends" (cuz they can be spoofed).

Aside from email (and those addresses), we have nothing "precious" on the machine; if it caught fire TODAY, we'd not lose anything (email is backed up on the server hosts).

Once or twice a year, I copy the contents of the desktop(s) onto an external drive (cuz that stuff likely only exists ON the desktops) along with the email folders/address books/browser shortcuts. Then, I pull the disk from the machine, write the date on it and put it on a shelf.

I then restore the original image to a clean disk. And, download up-to-date copies of free/trial AV products. With the disk that was removed BEFORE this most recent removal (i.e., a year or so old) in an external USB carrier, I scan it for malware. I.e., "was my machine infected a year ago -- BEFORE I had reinstalled the image for this most recent ~year. If the answer is no (it always is), I wipe the disk and put it in with the spares -- for NEXT year!

Then, reinstall the original image AGAIN on the current disk to overwrite the AV products (cuz I don't want them interfering with the machine's operation/performance). After that, I copy the email/address book/browser shortcuts/etc. back onto the clean image (which was created with those "users" already defined). So, I now have a machine that SHOULD be identical to the configuration it was in just a few hours earlier (except for any "settings" that may have been changed in the previous instance) but that should be free of any malware (recall the disk just pulled from it has NOT yet been scanned for malware -- cuz there may be some malware on it that the AV products can't YET detect -- hence the reason for putting it on a shelf for ~6-12 months while the AV vendors "catch up")

Now that the "last" (?) updates for W7 have been released, I will likely build a new image for "all but the final update" (to avoid the nag screen). Then, return to this process going forward.

We have a *second* machine -- a laptop -- that OCCASIONALLY goes online... for banking and etail. But, there is no "browsing" done, there -- we've already done that on THIS machine (in case we stumble onto something that we SHOULDN'T!). We manually copy the URLs to the laptop when we have made up our mind re: ordering.

There is no email done, there, either! (I don't think I even set up any email accounts on it!)

So, it's an "ecommerce TRANSACTION appliance" and nothing more.

Because it is ONLY used for those things, it gets shut off after a few minutes or maybe an hour (whereas THIS machine is NEVER shut off).

On each startup, the machine automatically does a "restore" so the contents of the hard disk are reset to what they were immediately after the last time it was powered up -- which is the same as the state that the machine was *built* as! So, any malware on the disk is overwritten.

This is essentially the same practice that we follow on THIS machine; but, here, it is done far less often and over a longer period of time -- cuz we let stuff accumulate on the desktop, in our browser, email client, etc. FOR CONVENIENCE. If you want to save anything on the laptop, you have to transfer it to an external drive (the laptop and THIS machine can only access the Internet -- none of the other machines or storage devices in the house)
BEFORE you shut down.

You can get *some* of this protection by running key apps in a sandbox (e.g., mail, browser). This prevents those apps from making PERMANENT changes to your drive's contents (when you exit the sandbox, any data written to your disk is discarded!).

Note that this does not prevent malware from being installed; it just prevents it from "staying" (assuming you close the sandbox frequently).

It also doesn't prevent malware that gets INTO the sandbox from looking at "stuff" on your machine. So, if you go to a pron site, get infected, and then try to do some online banking, your banking information can be compromised by the malware that is still present *in* the sandbox.

Likewise, that malware can snoop around your machine and harvest email addresses, etc. before you clear the sandbox.

And, you are still running with whatever "priviledge" you had before entering the sandbox. So, if you were Admin, any malware that gets into the sandbox is ALSO Admin!

All of these approaches have one thing in common: they represent a certain level of "inconvenience" for the user. And, require a level of commitment to ensure your actions REMAIN protected.

If you just want a machine for browsing and email, I think there are some bootable CDs that will give you this; pull your hard disk out and run off the CD!
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Old 01-30-2020, 01:22 AM   #33
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Default Re: What TRULY Renders an Operating System Obsolete?

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If you just want a machine for browsing and email, I think there are some bootable CDs that will give you this; pull your hard disk out and run off the CD!
I have tried to do this before but could not get it work correctly

What would your computer system requirements need to be for this to work correctly
ram , rom , cpu , video card and so on

What program do you use to create the image that does not cost an arm and a leg to buy

Where can I get the right information on how do this so it works

Also is this product any good

https://firewalla.com/products/firew...xoCnUAQAvD_BwE

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Old 01-30-2020, 07:53 AM   #34
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Default Re: What TRULY Renders an Operating System Obsolete?

you can use a Linux livedisk on any 64bit machine with atleast 2gig of ram,
you can then put your bookmarks etc on a usb stick.
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Old 01-30-2020, 02:23 PM   #35
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I have tried to do this before but could not get it work correctly
<frown> Not much I can say in response to your comment... WHAT didn't work?

Usually, the livecds need to be reconfigured on each boot (unless you are running everything via DHCP). But, you can move the configuration stuff onto a thumb drive and "install" it from there.

The thumb drive (or any other external storage) is also useful for saving stuff (email, bookmarks, etc.).

I'm not sure if any of the "turnkey products" designed with this in mind have kept up with changes in browsers -- last I looked at this approach was many years ago (at the time, I figured my other half would forever be grumbling about how "tedious" it was to use -- hence my reason for adopting the "autorestore hard disk" approach).

One thing that would be quick and easy to play with is something like Sandboxie -- though subject to the caveats I mentioned previously. At least it tries to protect the content of your machine from being altered/corrupted/infected.

Quote:
What would your computer system requirements need to be for this to work correctly
ram , rom , cpu , video card and so on
You'd have to check the distros on which each of these "products" are based. The bar keeps moving higher as the OSs get more and more bloated and browser requirements mushroom. AFAICT, folks are still making things with the idea that everyone *needs* the "kitchen sink" in EVERY product (if I just want to browse the web, why do I need support for SMB? NFS? NTP? my own FTP server? etc.).

Many of the lessons from the dumb terminal/X terminal era seem to have been forgotten (or never learned!)

[E.g., I could browse the web using an X terminal with no disk drive and ~60MB of RAM]

Quote:
What program do you use to create the image that does not cost an arm and a leg to buy
You could try something like Clonezilla. But, I don't think it can install a "restore partition" and create a turnkey environment (I wrote my own "one-off" tool to build the image on the ecommerce laptop)

Quote:
Where can I get the right information on how do this so it works
If your machine already has a restore partition, you'd have to research the format that it uses to store the image as well as where to "put" it (HPA, DCO, "unused" partition, etc.) The laptop that I used had *no* disk in it when I rescued it so I had to build everything from scratch; NO, I'm not going to BUY "restore media" -- esp when it would undoubtedly restore all the crapware that the manufacturer bundled with the laptop and *fail* to install/configure all of the OTHER apps that I wanted in place!)

Quote:
Also is this product any good

https://firewalla.com/products/firew...xoCnUAQAvD_BwE
No idea. I just use an old linksys router with it's internal firewall set very conservatively. The downside is, that it is unaware of which application is trying to punch through the firewall so I have to take that into account in how I configure it.

OTOH, its hard for malware on the PC to twiddle with the router's/firewall configuration (though you have to be sure there are no known exploits for your router/firewall)

Best advice: don't engage in behaviors that are likely to make you a target of malware. I.e., don't sleep with someone with an STD thinking you can be "cured" with medications; easier just to AVOID the problem, entirely!
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Old 01-30-2020, 02:24 PM   #36
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you can use a Linux livedisk on any 64bit machine with atleast 2gig of ram,
you can then put your bookmarks etc on a usb stick.
(sigh) I can recall running *BSD on machines with 4M(ega)B. Now, I imagine the browser itself would be thrashing!
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Old 01-30-2020, 02:56 PM   #37
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Default Re: What TRULY Renders an Operating System Obsolete?

i second the linux livecd idea. its what i use for internet banking. no storage devices connected except the cd/dvd drive of course!

im surprised sam cant get this working. i use imgburn to burn the ubuntu livedvd image and also to customise the contents on it if necessary. works great!
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Old 01-30-2020, 05:46 PM   #38
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Default Re: What TRULY Renders an Operating System Obsolete?

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(sigh) I can recall running *BSD on machines with 4M(ega)B. Now, I imagine the browser itself would be thrashing!
i can remember running amiga with full basic, and a compiler in 1MB,

but the livedisks many of which are live-dvd's decompress to ram - so it;s not so much to run the distro as to hold it in decompressed form.
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Old 01-30-2020, 09:11 PM   #39
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but the livedisks many of which are live-dvd's decompress to ram - so it;s not so much to run the distro as to hold it in decompressed form.
Yes, but my first BSD distro was only a hundred megabytes. And, that included the sources and tools to rebuild the complete system!

Files:
Base distribution: 16M
Compiler/tools: 8M
Text (nroff/troff): 2M
Docs (man pages): 2M
Games: 4M
Misc: 4M
So, a complete system of binaries is ~36MB.

Add the sources:
Kernel: 6M
Userland: 43M
Share: 9M
Security: 1M
for another 59MB. So, 95MB of RAM-disk would hold an entire system. You'd then have to add swap and working memory (as little as 4MB plus another 4 for swap)... almost exactly 100MB total!

I recall downloading it all with a modem and creating 5" floppies for install media!
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Old 01-30-2020, 10:51 PM   #40
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Default Re: What TRULY Renders an Operating System Obsolete?

well to be fair, that was a command-line system and if it had a GUI it was probably similar to GEM on the atari st.
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