Help With Reassembling Basic 110 VAC Motor

[Sparkey55]

Re: Help With Reassembling Basic 110 VAC Motor

To Used Cars: How is it coming together with the shop vac yet?

[Used_Cars]

Re: Help With Reassembling Basic 110 VAC Motor

To Used Cars: How is it coming together with the shop vac yet?

BYW, based on this measurement you provided: https://www.badcaps.net/forum/attach...2&d=1521157574
N1 to Not_ N1 did not show open circuit so that means the Thermal protection did not go open circuit.
Once you put it all together to check to see if it shows open circuit or not between the AC plug's blades then we can go from there. Be careful on those brushes when putting them back together.

I carefully reassembled the motor per your diagram, making sure to keep the thermal protection on the black, switched, "L" side of the motor. Plugged it in, turned and turned it on. It ran for about 3 seconds and then this happened:

[eccerr0r]

Re: Help With Reassembling Basic 110 VAC Motor

That's weird, did it run as energetically as before it zapped the outlet? When it starts spinning it should pass some power back and not fry like that, or was that outlet there in bad shape to begin with?

[budm]

Re: Help With Reassembling Basic 110 VAC Motor

That to me looks like bad contact on the Line side socket of the AC outlet.
BTW, is it the same out you used when the vacuum stopped working?

[petehall347]

Re: Help With Reassembling Basic 110 VAC Motor

need to fit gcfi or something . that shouldn't happen these days ...

[eccerr0r]

Re: Help With Reassembling Basic 110 VAC Motor

PSA: If you plug in something and it feels "loose" or the plug easily pushes in or pulls out, that outlet is in poor condition - WORN OUT - and should be REPLACED. If you can't replace it, you must derate it significantly - if it's nominally 15A, do not even think about attempt to power 13A, 10A, or even 5A through it, it will overheat and can cause a fire. If it's weak, best to stay below 1 or 2 amps tops, and you'll still be frustrated with it losing contact... REPLACE IT!

[Sparkey55]

Re: Help With Reassembling Basic 110 VAC Motor

I carefully reassembled the motor per your diagram, making sure to keep the thermal protection on the black, switched, "L" side of the motor. Plugged it in, turned and turned it on. It ran for about 3 seconds and then this happened:

The shop vac works. The AC outlet does not.
show us what the cord prongs look like now.

[eccerr0r]

Re: Help With Reassembling Basic 110 VAC Motor

I've seen a lot of "outlet fire" post-mortems and always wondered how the fire could have happened. A short should have triggered the circuit breaker so that couldn't be it. However if there was effectively a 900 watt heater pointed at the plastic of the outlet and plug... that would explain everything.

[Used_Cars]

Re: Help With Reassembling Basic 110 VAC Motor

That's weird, did it run as energetically as before it zapped the outlet? When it starts spinning it should pass some power back and not fry like that, or was that outlet there in bad shape to begin with?

Yes. At first I thought it was going to "go", and then it died, looked over my shoulder and saw the outlet.

It's a brand-new switch/outlet. I replaced it less than a year ago because I wanted an outlet near the door that connects the house to the garage. I haven't tested the outlet yet to see if it's hot or not. I don't think a circuit breaker flipped, but it might have. Have not checked that yet either.

That to me looks like bad contact on the Line side socket of the AC outlet.
BTW, is it the same out you used when the vacuum stopped working?

I don't know if by "bad contact" you mean the outlet is defective in some way, or something is wrong with the way the motor is wired.

No, it's not the same outlet I used when the vacuum quit working.

I haven't disassembled the motor again, yet, because I wanted to wait to see if taking pics of the wiring as it is right now might be useful, to see if I did something wrong or whatever.

There is one odd thing I noticed when reassembling it, and that is how the switch on the vacuum flips a toggle switch. There's a plastic "slide" which, on the outside of the vacuum housing allows your thumb to slide it left to right, and behind the plastic slide it mechanically pushes a standard toggle switch one way or the other. I noticed that the interface between the orange plastic slide and the toggle switch was odd in that the plastic slide did not seem to fully "flip" the toggle switch. It traveled about 3/4 of it's arc, but did not "click" all the way over, so (it appears) the toggle switch goes from a solid "OFF" (with a click), to 3/4 of the way towards "ON", but the toggle wouldn't go all the way to the point that it actually clicked.

I noticed this when the vacuum housing was still separated, and figured that when the other half was fastened the slide would actuate the toggle 100%, like it needed additional support in order to make that toggle go all the way to the point that it actually clicked.

Even if the toggle doesn't travel all the way over to the "ON" (click) position, I don't see how that causes this problem. But I wanted to through out the possibility that it's the cause of the problem, i.e. maybe the toggle switch is bad.

I can take a pic of this also, if useful.

Thanks for all the help.

[Used_Cars]

Re: Help With Reassembling Basic 110 VAC Motor

I've seen a lot of "outlet fire" post-mortems and always wondered how the fire could have happened. A short should have triggered the circuit breaker so that couldn't be it. However if there was effectively a 900 watt heater pointed at the plastic of the outlet and plug... that would explain everything.

The wiring in this house is completely f*****. Before we moved in, there was a house fire and this is the area of the house that burned. Afterwards, some kind of professional "flipping" company did the repairs and they did horrible terrible things with everything, such as painting over charred wood, and other things with the wiring too terrible to even mention. So defective wiring is on the list for possible suspects in every outlet in the entire house.

[Used_Cars]

Re: Help With Reassembling Basic 110 VAC Motor

The shop vac works. The AC outlet does not.
show us what the cord prongs look like now.

Travelling today. I'll get that posted later on this evening when I get back.

[goontron]

Re: Help With Reassembling Basic 110 VAC Motor

Looks like the plug is the issue, not the socket...

[budm]

Re: Help With Reassembling Basic 110 VAC Motor

There are ONLY two wires connected to the switch so it cannot be wired wrong. The whole connections of the motor and switch are in series.
You have bad contact problem between your AC plug and the outlet.

[Used_Cars]

Re: Help With Reassembling Basic 110 VAC Motor

There are ONLY two wires connected to the switch so it cannot be wired wrong. The whole connections of the motor and switch are in series.
You have bad contact problem between your AC plug and the outlet.

The outlet tests good with a standard household light bulb plugged in (a home-made "trouble light". It's also brand-new. I've used a household vacuum cleaner in that outlet within the week. It's one of the most-used outlets in the whole house. I converted a simple switch (for the lights in the garage) to a switch + outlet because an outlet in that location was necessary for lots and lots of things, and I've been using it for lots of things since I installed it.

Another thing I think I noticed but didn't mention is that the wire that connects the brush to the terminal that clips to the motor housing was discolored somewhat. You might see it in the photographs. One is dark and normal colored,the other is a lighter, dustier, more pale color than the other.
Could the one of the brushes (the whole assembly, brush, braided wire and terminal clip) be defecting in some way, and cause this? Maybe it opens under load so only one brush is doing all the work? Will the motor still spin if one brush is open? Is there a way to test a brush for continuity?

I don't know what kind of metal is in the brush. What if I do a continuity test from brush, through the braided wire, to the terminal and it's open? What if there is resistance? How else would you test a brush?

[Used_Cars]

Re: Help With Reassembling Basic 110 VAC Motor

Looks like the plug is the issue, not the socket...

I did a continuity test on the cable, on both sides and they tested short, and they tested open from one cable to the next. The Plug appears to be in good condition. How would I verify the plug is good or bad beyond this?

[budm]

Re: Help With Reassembling Basic 110 VAC Motor

"Will the motor still spin if one brush is open? Is there a way to test a brush for continuity" No it not run since they whole things are connected in series so if one goes open circuit then there will be no current flow.
Can we see the picture of the AC plug?
If you think the outlet is OK then try plugging in hair dryer set to the max and see what happen. In my 40 years, that kind of failure at the AC outlet like that are due to poor contact.

[eccerr0r]

Re: Help With Reassembling Basic 110 VAC Motor

for a commutated motor to work, both brushes must be working in order to give continuity as well as to spin. A poorly conducting brush would allow much less current to flow and would not allow the rotor to strongly turn.

You mention "It's one of the most-used outlets in the whole house" which would imply it could take a lot of wear. The outlets, depending on how it's designed, is usually the wear point. Granted higher quality outlets would not wear out as fast but it's hard to tell the quality by looking at the outside. And even if it gives a tight fit when plugging and unplugging, it may not be the metal contacts that are providing the needed friction to allow a strong, low resistance connection.

[Sparkey55]

Re: Help With Reassembling Basic 110 VAC Motor

The outlet tests good with a standard household light bulb plugged in (a home-made "trouble light". It's also brand-new. I've used a household vacuum cleaner in that outlet within the week. It's one of the most-used outlets in the whole house. I converted a simple switch (for the lights in the garage) to a switch + outlet because an outlet in that location was necessary for lots and lots of things, and I've been using it for lots of things since I installed it.

Another thing I think I noticed but didn't mention is that the wire that connects the brush to the terminal that clips to the motor housing was discolored somewhat. You might see it in the photographs. One is dark and normal colored,the other is a lighter, dustier, more pale color than the other.
Could the one of the brushes (the whole assembly, brush, braided wire and terminal clip) be defecting in some way, and cause this? Maybe it opens under load so only one brush is doing all the work? Will the motor still spin if one brush is open? Is there a way to test a brush for continuity?

I don't know what kind of metal is in the brush. What if I do a continuity test from brush, through the braided wire, to the terminal and it's open? What if there is resistance? How else would you test a brush?

budm in post #33 is right. Lose or worn out plugs and or outlets usually do not show the results of such damage with low current devices plugged in. It take high current things like air conditioners, microwave ovens, space heaters and vacuume cleaners to see the effects of worn contacts. what current rating is the breaker? It should be a 20 amp. When you plug in vacuume cleaners do the lights dim?

Put one probe of your ohm meter on one prong and the probe on the other prong. With the vacuum switch in the ON position you should see a LOW ohm reading ( it will vary in numbers because of the carbon brushes ).

Do the same above but with the vacuum switch in the OFF position. You should see an open circuit reading.

Is this a 2 wire cord or a 3 wire cord?

[eccerr0r]

Re: Help With Reassembling Basic 110 VAC Motor

Usually wet/dry shop vacs use a 3-wire cord, and that outlet looks like a standard NEMA 5-15 - which is usually paired with a 15-amp fuse or breaker.

Looking at the photo closer, oh nice, it's an even "newer" tamper resistant outlet ... not sure about the design tradeoffs they made to make these tamper resistant outlets...

[Sparkey55]

Re: Help With Reassembling Basic 110 VAC Motor

Another thing that could cause the outlet to fry is if you had the shop vac switch turned on before you inserted the power cord into the live outlet. instant sparks or fire.