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Another LG 60PV450 Z-Sustain issue, maybe?

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    Another LG 60PV450 Z-Sustain issue, maybe?

    Hi, I have spent the last week reading and learning before placing this post.

    I bought my LG 60PV450 approx 3 years ago. It has had typically light usage, 2-3 hours a day, 5-6 days a week. There were a couple 12+ hours gaming tests but they were rare.

    Anyhow, it has always had a nice picture and behaved perfectly. Around 10 days ago I booted up a Windows gaming rig on it. I was in the kitchen and not looking but at some point of being parked on desktop I looked in and saw that the normally yellow desktop had gone very dark & grey. It looked like SOMETHING had gone to sleep. I moved the mouse and it didn't wake up. Turns out the LG had lost all color and most of it's brightness. I power cycled it and it stayed the same.

    I turned it off for 20 minutes and turned it back on, picture came up normally, I was happy. For about a minute. That was last time it worked. Since then it has been stuck in "dark" mode, and that is only viewable if room is very dark.

    Now it is basically completely unusable. I know that the "no connection" blurb is bouncing around on the screen, but it only appears as splotches of white on a black background.

    I removed the back, all components look fine. No brown on any PCBs from past baking, everything looks new. Not even very dusty.

    All voltages tested OK. On Z-Sus the VS hits 263 when I attach meter but jumps right down to 201 where it is supposed to be. The 5V line is at 5.1. Even VZBias at 110 V where it should be.

    On the Y-Sus I saw 5.16 on the 5V line, 55.1 on VA (should be 55) and again 201.2 for VS. I disconnected LVDS and bridged points to make test patterns happen. Saw colors in the corners, nowhere else. It had appearance that matched several "Bad Z-Sus" board images on here. Specifically the mandelbrot shapes in corners.

    All fuses on both Y & Z Sus boards are fine. I looked at Z-Sus board under a lighted magnifying light on both sides. No scorching, no tiny craters on hard to see dark components. And yes, I did look for bad solder joints, specifically on the 3 large coils. All soldering looked fine. I should mention that I run a small business which involves a lot of SOIC-8 EEPROM replacement on GPUs. So I have a hot air station and pencil irons, etc. I also have a larger 60W gun and a $30 Heat Gun that can be used when larger item needs to go.

    Sometimes on a PC GPU parts of the power circuit will blow a tiny crater in their top surface.

    Anyhow, no such luck, nothing visible. In reading other Z-Sus threads for this machine I noticed that most involved blown fuses and resistors at base of IGBT chips.

    https://www.badcaps.net/forum/showth...t=igbt+60pv450

    I decided to just order a Z-Sus board since it seemed a likely culprit, based on symptoms. Then I discovered that nobody had them.

    Here is the shop jimmy page:

    http://www.shopjimmy.com/lg-ebr73561701-zsus-board.htm

    The only options I see are some repair kits on Ebay and 2 repair services where you send your board in. I noticed that the repair kits basically have all of the parts mentioned in the 1st thread I linked. But if I don't have anything (obviously) blown or shorted. If I turn it on, all I see is an occasional splash of white dots where the "no connection" notice is bouncing around. It will stay on like this for 10-15 minutes then eventually turn off.

    In short, I'm afraid that the standard repair kit may not be what is needed and if those people on Ebay doing repairs are just using same parts they buy in a kit.....

    Anyhow, I got excited reading that some boards can be interchanged. I had a look at the model right before mine:

    http://www.shopjimmy.com/lg-ebr63450501-zsus-board.htm

    It looked like the same basic board. And they are a dime-a-dozen. As little as $7 on Ebay. Looked like same plugs in same places. So I bought one.

    Got the board yesterday and realized first that screw holes in wrong places, only 3 match up. But I had to know. I had to cover parts of board where the studs came up and met components.

    And for the first time in almost 2 weeks, it fired up. But it isn't perfect. All of the plugs were the same, EXCEPT there was a 5V line coming into the proper part from the PSU , but the older Z-Sus didn't have that pin connected. It doesn't have a 5V line in from PSU.

    In all of my fiddling with remote while I couldn't see anything, i had evidently selected "CABLE TV" as input. SO screen was full of snow. Oddly, it wouldn't let me choose another input. And I finally realized that the menus were also wrong, they had bursts of orange in the blue. So I turned it off and put the original Z-Sus back in. Still dark.

    My number one priority is to get the set running. My living room looks silly with a 30" computer display set up in front of Plasma so I have something to look at. I have PM'd a member who mentioned a spare good Z-Sus board. I realize that my experiment was not wise, but it would seem that I know that there is SOMETHING wrong on my Z-Sus. The voltage is present at VZBIAS test point, but must not be getting sent out to power the screen.

    My other thought on this is I can't help but notice a LACK of threads complaining about the older model's Z-Sus board. And they are plentiful everywhere I look, while the 60PV450 Z-Sus boards are N/A.

    So, it would have been wonderful if they worked in the newer set, but evidently they don't. My next thought is wondering if whatever blew on my board is also present on the older board, which I could use as a donor. If a more robust version is on those older boards, could be a good thing.

    I have a DMM auto-ranging and general electrical skills. I am concerned that the typical kit is to repair a burned out IGBT that also takes down a few SMD resistors and a Fuse, none of which has happened to mine. I am also concerned that if I buy the kit and do the repair and that does't fix it I will have to send to a shop but they specifically mention "no prior work".

    Will appreciate any info.

    #2
    Re: Another LG 60PV450 Z-Sustain issue, maybe?

    Last night I had a closer look at Z-Sus board.

    Thought that maybe one of the coil solder joints was cracked so I reflowed all of them and several of the pieces connected to heatsinks.

    And it got worse, now it clicks off within 20 seconds of turning on, still nothing on the display. There wads a pop or crackle as well, so i will be re-checking all components once I yank the boards again.

    I forgot to mention that I checked the Y-Sus voltages, they were both right on track. (was before reflow on Z-Sus)

    Last night I finally realized that this wonderful TV that I thought was perfect 2 weeks ago, might be leaving here for the e-waste facility soon. The madness is that I would love to buy a Z-Sus board and KNOW but they can't be had for love or money. I contacted one of the repair places on Ebay (Sam something) and all he wrote back was "Did you check the MOSFET?" Pretty sure there is more then 1. Sounds to me like he just slaps in the standard kit I could buy myself.

    Is there a way to buy these boards new from LG? I'd pay $200 or so, the TV is probably worth $300 or $400 working, I'd rather keep it then junk and buy something else.

    I downloaded the "Service Manual" but it seems largely concerned with the logic circuits/control board and very little mention of power or how it works. In fact< I'n not sure the Sustain Boards are even mentioned. They just mention PDP as a single entity.
    Attached Files
    Last edited by MVC; 07-22-2015, 04:30 PM.

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      #3
      Re: Another LG 60PV450 Z-Sustain issue, maybe?

      These z-sus boards are tough to find now.

      I have 2 of these 60PV450's love em for a cheap plasma that has a decent picture.

      I think that PK/PX series z-sus board is a 3D TV board so yeah they would not be compatible at all.

      https://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthread.php?t=42901
      Last edited by Shinju; 07-22-2015, 09:46 PM.

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        #4
        Re: Another LG 60PV450 Z-Sustain issue, maybe?

        Thanks for your input. The pix you have look a lot like mine did.

        I feel pretty strongly that Z-Sus is bad, really frustrating that Google search gives pages and pages of "vendors", obviously all buying from same place or places, every one out of stock.

        The "Sam" guy sent me specific list of FETs to check, going to go bust the board and DM out to check.

        The worrisome thing is that the other half of the household is sick and tired of living room looking like "Earl's TV Repair", wants a working TV and the 32" LED isn't cutting it after 3 years of 60" Plasma wonderfulness. Fortunately just had e-recycler pickup last week for the GPU biz, can probably wait another week or two, after that it's off to the grinder.

        After reading many threads on here it is scary. For everyone who brings one back from the dead, there is someone else who has 1-10 minutes before new parts blow. From fixing GPUs I know this well. Sometimes replacing the blown part is replacing the SYMPTOM, not the cause.

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          #5
          Re: Another LG 60PV450 Z-Sustain issue, maybe?

          Va and Vs are gone.

          2 sets of clicks when powered on, then back to standby. I will read some threads now with LGs in this sad state. I didn't remove or replace any components, just soldered those coils better. I seem to recall that others have seen this same behavior. Will be checking more boards but I fear that the TV has just taken a big step toward the landfill.

          Anyone used Coppell repair place? I could send him all 3 boards and have them tested/repaired if I believed that would get to the end of it. DOn't mind paying him to test & repair if it would get me another 2-3 years.

          I have ordered a new Panasonic 65" 4K for living room and promised the SO that the LG will be fixed or recycled by time it gets here next week.

          Comment


            #6
            Re: Another LG 60PV450 Z-Sustain issue, maybe?

            Mild Progress.

            I found that Vs was shorted to Grnd on the Ysus. Would explain the PSU giving two tries and giving up. Checked the FGPF4633 MosFets and found 3 of them that had all 3 pins shorted to each other, no matter how you connected probes. The other 3 were dependent on polarity and not shorted on all pins.

            So I got out some tiny clippers and a screwdriver. Yanked the legs off those 3 and now Vs doesn't short to ground.

            Put the Ysus back in and it no longer cuts off. It also doesn't have a picture and the Ysus generated voltages are all over the place, but with 1/2 of the FETS gone, hardly surprising.

            Those parts are only $1.76/each from Newegg. If nobody rep's some more sturdy ones that could replace them, will likely order a dozen or so, if I'm going to rush ship them may as well get more than a few.

            The back of the Ysus board is a tiny bit brown near one of the dead FETS. So maybe was Ysus the whole time? In any case, I found a source for brand new ZSus, so not sure if I should jump on it or if I will get away with just switching out these FETS on Ysus. And I imagine I should check Y-buffers while I'm doing all this, maybe one of them went bad and shorted all of this.

            Of course I finally made progress AFTER I ordered the new TV. Fingers crossed this does it.

            Comment


              #7
              Re: Another LG 60PV450 Z-Sustain issue, maybe?

              Did you check the solider joints on the inductor coils on the Y-sus?

              Comment


                #8
                Re: Another LG 60PV450 Z-Sustain issue, maybe?

                Yeah, they look OK. Sad thing is that all I did to Z-Sus was touch up solder joints and now the Y-Sus has blown apart.

                I have some of the FETS coming from Mouser, but I am not hopeful. When I pull the old FETS i'll touch up the coils. I also ordered a new Zsus and a refurb Y-Sus but am afraid they will just blow up too.

                I know I need to test the Y Buffers for shorts. TV was fine, went dark and now I have a collection of blown up parts. Probably going to avoid LG for the future, doesn't seem they meant these to last more then 3 years.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Re: Another LG 60PV450 Z-Sustain issue, maybe?

                  Originally posted by MVC View Post
                  Yeah, they look OK. Sad thing is that all I did to Z-Sus was touch up solder joints and now the Y-Sus has blown apart.

                  I have some of the FETS coming from Mouser, but I am not hopeful. When I pull the old FETS i'll touch up the coils. I also ordered a new Zsus and a refurb Y-Sus but am afraid they will just blow up too.

                  I know I need to test the Y Buffers for shorts. TV was fine, went dark and now I have a collection of blown up parts. Probably going to avoid LG for the future, doesn't seem they meant these to last more then 3 years.
                  I did the exact same thing as you. We had color flutter in the middle 1/3 of the screen, so I re-soldered the Z-SUS coils as most were cracked (6 contacts in all) and reassembled. Upon power up I heard a small pop and it shut down. Now I get a buzz from the Z-SUS board and after two power up tries, it shuts down. How can fixing a loose connection cause the thing to fall apart? Amazing.

                  Please post follow-ups here if you determine what needs replaced. Although, I'm not sure I want to put too much time and money into this poorly designed unit. I did check all the fuses I could find, so it looks like the pop was a component.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    And the hits just keep on coming...

                    I should have known that finding a NEW Z-Sus in stock was too good to be true.

                    Got an email, they have shipped my Refurb Y-Sus but the Z-Sus is on Backorder !

                    Probably a "waiting for Godot" sort of backorder.

                    They did manage to CHARGE for the Z-Sus though.

                    Glad I ordered the FETS from Mouser but I have to say I'm feeling more like this thing is going to get junked. Sad.

                    Has anyone had LG repair their set? Their site makes it look like no big deal.

                    Meanwhile, the new 4K has been picked up in Brooklyn.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Re: Another LG 60PV450 Z-Sustain issue, maybe?

                      I feel your pain - I am on girlfriend Nag level 9 because she cant watch Big Bang Theory in 50 inch - My 24 inch pc monitor just isnt big enough - women and size eh!!!!

                      LG are shit i wont be buying another - My old Bush crt lasted 15 years this pile of crap has lasted barely 4 years - I am hopeful i can fix it today as one of the guys on here is coming out with the part - The strangest thing happened - I ordered the part that i thought was wrong and then found this website - the first guy to reply to my message lives near me and was the first to reply - Its actually the guy i bought the part from on ebay - he is bringing the part personally tomorrow along with the rest of the spare telly he has just in case i havent diagnosed the right part - and giving me so help - How Spooky is that eh!!!

                      This is one of the best sites i have found after two solid weeks of learning about Plasma repair just like you - so many really clever "real" electronics guys on here unlike most of the board swappers who operate so called repair shops!
                      You are only too old when you say you are too old!!!

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Re: Another LG 60PV450 Z-Sustain issue, maybe?

                        Man, I just found a Z Sus on Ebay. But it's in Florida and I am in LA so he won't be driving it by. I hope you get the right part. I keep checking CL for a TV like mine with broken screen. A month ago someone in Phoenix had one for sale for $95, 7 hours in a car and I might have gone.

                        Good luck, I hope yours gets fixed. I'm feeling doubtful.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Re: Another LG 60PV450 Z-Sustain issue, maybe?

                          Just FYI...after thorough inspection and touch-up soldering of both sustain boards, FGPF4533 FET's can be upgraded to FGPF4536. ( compare specs at Mouser.com ).

                          PS.Even if you buy a salvaged board, inspection and soldering will likely be needed.
                          Last edited by Terryfictv; 07-28-2015, 10:18 AM.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Re: Another LG 60PV450 Z-Sustain issue, maybe?

                            My board had these:

                            512-FGPF4633TU
                            FGPF4633TU
                            330V PDP

                            I tried to find a better version but couldn't.

                            Is there something else?

                            These were on my Y-Sus that burned up right after I soldered coils on Z-Sus. I have not found anything wrong with Z-Sus yet the symptoms originally looked like it was bad.
                            Last edited by MVC; 07-28-2015, 03:51 PM.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              More bad news

                              I thought I found a good Z-Sus

                              But all of the "please don't file a claim against us" language had me wary.

                              http://www.ebay.com/itm/252036779776...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

                              And sure enough, it got here today, I had a look at it and saw cracks on the coil solder joints. After I fixed them, I decided to take a DMM to it, first check was the big main fuse FS103.

                              OPEN !!!

                              Checked the power MOSFETS, all 3 pins shorted everywhere. So, worse then the Zsus I already have. I wrote the guy and pointed out that an "F" meant Fuse and he could save himself some bother by testing them all. I guess in the ad when he says "no shorts" he meant the fuses, as the MOSFETS are all shorted to hell.

                              A waste of time. On the good news front the 10 FETS I ordered from Mouser are here. Going to dig out the industrial $30 heat gun and start work on the Y-Sus. The rebuilt one isn't here yet so I may as well. Still have never found any bad parts on my Z-Sus, maybe it was never the problem and is still OK?

                              Comment


                                #16
                                Re: Another LG 60PV450 Z-Sustain issue, maybe?

                                Bugger, I have an extra Z-Sus it was doing the squid ink deal but if yours is beyond repair you can try this one. Just pay shipping and it's yours.

                                Did you test your buffers?

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  Re: Another LG 60PV450 Z-Sustain issue, maybe?

                                  Be happy to take it. I can PM you and get a paypal address or can mail a check, whatever.

                                  The EBay was terrified I would leave bad feedback and had a full refund in my account within 30 minutes of me telling him board was junk. My guess is he was rolling dice, had an idea it might be bad.

                                  I clipped center leg of one FET at a time, on 3rd one the short was fixed. Much easier changing FET on the Zeus then on Y. Replaced FS103 and quick circuit test looks OK.

                                  I replaced all 3 of the bad FETS on the Y-Sus, was a bitch and if I was planning to keep using this y-Sus I would have to improve it. But in any case, put the repaired bad EBay board in with my repaired Y-Sus. Went back to the double click double click, shutoff. Disconnected the Z-Sus and it will remain on. Tried to check the voltages on Y-Sus, one of them was all over the meter, thought it looked like AC so switched to AC, found a nice steady 19.43V AC. That's not good. Getting in over my head...rectifier diode maybe? The voltages coming in from PSU board are fine, it's the voltages coming out of Y-Sus that are no good. Disconnecting power to Y-Sus and it still clicks off. Disconnecting power to repaired EBay Z-Sus stops the double click double click off issue. So, even with that FET replaced, Z-Sus still bad, though not shorting to ground anymore. Putting my original Z-Sus back in it didn't do the click thing, but no picture and bias voltage was like 43 Volts or something, totally wrong.

                                  Pulled top buffer board, seems OK. As I understand the test you find the pins that are all grouped together that connect to Y-Sus and look for shorts to the output pins that connect to the ribbon cables that go to panel. No shorts on top buffer. Seem to recall that you can't run with Y buffers disconnected but will read relevant threads again.

                                  On the good news front, the official rebuilt Y-Sus got here today. I haven't opened box yet but was bought via Part Store division of Best Buy, so hopeful it is 100%.

                                  So, plan of action now:

                                  1. Finish testing bottom Y-Buffer.
                                  2. Find out if I can run with Y-Buffers disconnected. (they have ribbon between them)
                                  3. Get an understanding of how Z-Sus may possibly kill Y-Sus.
                                  4. Become certain that I have a Z-Sus that won't kill new Y-Sus.
                                  5. Install Y-Sus and verify voltages.
                                  6. SOMEHOW end up with good Z-Sus.

                                  Obviously I am terrified of blowing up my new Y-Sustain and will not be putting it in there until I have some idea what is going on. I imagine that I need to get a handle on what and how to test my Z-Sus. It never showed wrong voltages or shorts, everything went downhill when I fixed the cracked solder on the large Coils. That is when it and Y-Sus both stopped giving correct voltages (right after a snap-crackle-pop on power up)

                                  I will be searching for how to test the FETS. Easy to know when it is shorted, but perhaps some are bad open? I imagine I need to test some diodes.

                                  Exciting to think that I probably have all the parts I need here right now, trick is to get them together before something (new Y-Sus) gets blown apart.
                                  Last edited by MVC; 07-31-2015, 04:42 PM.

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    Re: Another LG 60PV450 Z-Sustain issue, maybe?

                                    Originally posted by MVC View Post
                                    Obviously I am terrified of blowing up my new Y-Sustain and will not be putting it in there until I have some idea what is going on. I imagine that I need to get a handle on what and how to test my Z-Sus. It never showed wrong voltages or shorts, everything went downhill when I fixed the cracked solder on the large Coils. That is when it and Y-Sus both stopped giving correct voltages (right after a snap-crackle-pop on power up)

                                    I will be searching for how to test the FETS. Easy to know when it is shorted, but perhaps some are bad open? I imagine I need to test some diodes.

                                    Exciting to think that I probably have all the parts I need here right now, trick is to get them together before something (new Y-Sus) gets blown apart.
                                    I sent my Z and Y boards off to the samcomponents guy on ebay. He seemed responsive to my questions and reviews are generally very positive (didn't charge some for boards that were found good). That, and he had me send both boards and would invoice for the Y-Sus repair, only if necessary. The Z-Sus was definitely buzzing, but he thinks the Y may have issues too, due to the grounding issue I introduced. Here's to hoping the other boards are OK.

                                    Just curious, since I did the same thing as you with fixing the Z-Sus coils and had the same thing happen with a pop and then two-click cycles... did you have all the chassis screws in the Z board when you reinstalled? I was in a hurry to test and just figured one or two would do it, then I realized there are multiple circuits and ground points on the board. I would have been much more careful had I known the parts scarcity and limited availability of _any_ plasma TVs these days.

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      Re: Another LG 60PV450 Z-Sustain issue, maybe?

                                      I would check the bottom buffer too, the bottom buffer I usually the one to pop first.

                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        Re: Another LG 60PV450 Z-Sustain issue, maybe?

                                        energyx

                                        you called that one, i saw a spark on Zsus and thought it was from a cap in center of board

                                        when I pulled it back off I noticed scorch marks at the screw hole by that cap

                                        I was only missing 2 screws, but apparently enough

                                        Up until that point I had correct voltages, after they were all off (all meaning the ones made on Z Sus and Y Sus) PSU voltages have remained fine.

                                        I iwsh I knew what the hell was really going on. Time to bust out the voltmeter and check the lower buffer and then start putting things in

                                        A shame that the Z-Sus I bought was worse then the one I had. What's really pissy is that EBay is flooded with similar LG Z-Sus boards for models before and after, can be had for peanuts. But the Z-Sus from this model is a rare bird, I'm guessing a general design flaw has made them all burn up.

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