Badcaps.net Forum
Go Back   Badcaps Forums > General Topics > General Capacitor Questions & Issues
Register FAQ Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 04-05-2016, 06:10 PM   #1
73buick
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
City & State: New York
My Country: USA
I'm a: Knowledge Seeker
Posts: 35
Default KZG 6.3v 820uf replacement

Got a Dell w/a bunch of blown KZG 6.3v 820uf caps. What should I replace these with? The store only has ZLH in these but they don't quite match the KZG specs. I have HZ 6.3V 1000uf on hand, will those work?

I just found I had some Rubycon AX 6.3v 820uf. It looks like they should work fine.

Last edited by 73buick; 04-05-2016 at 06:27 PM..
73buick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2016, 04:55 AM   #2
Stefan Payne
Badcaps Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
City & State: Northern Germany
My Country: Germany
Line Voltage: 230VAC/50Hz or 400VAC/3P/50Hz
I'm a: Knowledge Seeker
Posts: 1,259
Default Re: KZG 6.3v 820uf replacement

6.3V/820F or maybe 1000F Polymers like Nichicon L8.
Stefan Payne is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2016, 05:28 PM   #3
zuhr14
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
City & State: Antarkt
My Country: Antarktis
I'm a: Knowledge Seeker
Posts: 21
Default Re: KZG 6.3v 820uf replacement

I use for replace KZG series after a few experiments only Panasonic FM (with one level higher capacity)- all are OK and working with no problem.
On old mobos is (frequently) many(20+) KZG caps in various places. Isnt warranted, that there is low or high frequency.

Polymer with multiplier 0,05 at 120Hz is in some cases(low frequency) unusable
FM is, in my opinion, universal resolution - can be used at low/high frequeny(polymer only with high)

FM is marked as Super Low ESR
http://industrial.panasonic.com/ww/p...minum-cap-lead
+FM is better than KZG.
+Longer life
+Easy obtainable(any voltage, any capacity)

Last edited by zuhr14; 04-06-2016 at 05:32 PM..
zuhr14 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2016, 07:25 PM   #4
stj
Great Sage 齊天大聖
 
stj's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
City & State: Europe
My Country: some shithole run by Israeli agents
I'm a: Professional Tech
Posts: 29,107
Default Re: KZG 6.3v 820uf replacement

FR is longlife version of the older FM series.
stj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2016, 09:41 PM   #5
zuhr14
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
City & State: Antarkt
My Country: Antarktis
I'm a: Knowledge Seeker
Posts: 21
Default Re: KZG 6.3v 820uf replacement

Yes, but FM is better than FR and FM is longlife in relation to KZG
zuhr14 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2016, 03:10 PM   #6
linuxguru
Badcaps Veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,559
Default Re: KZG 6.3v 820uf replacement

Has anybody found the datasheet of NCC KZV? The only ones I've found are references from KZG and KZJ datasheets that show KZV as being lower impedance than those two. It also seems to be a 2000-hr endurance series, similar to Rubycon MCZ. I have a few on hand for measurements, will check if they're comparable to MCZ and Nichicon HZ. If so, they would potentially be an excellent replacement for KZG and KZJ, and generally any 8-mm diameter ultra-low ESR series for VRM output applications (I know that this is the age of polymers, but KZV are available in higher capacitances and can be directly substituted).
linuxguru is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2016, 06:45 PM   #7
mockingbird
Badcaps Veteran
 
mockingbird's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 5,391
Default Re: KZG 6.3v 820uf replacement

If they're based on the same electrolyte as KZG and KZJ, then wouldn't you agree that they're not worth using?

I'll send an email to the rep and see if she sends it to me.
__________________
"We have offered them (the Arabs) a sensible way for so many years. But no, they wanted to fight. Fine! We gave them technology, the latest, the kind even Vietnam didn't have. They had double superiority in tanks and aircraft, triple in artillery, and in air defense and anti-tank weapons they had absolute supremacy. And what? Once again they were beaten. Once again they scrammed [sic]. Once again they screamed for us to come save them. Sadat woke me up in the middle of the night twice over the phone, 'Save me!' He demanded to send Soviet troops, and immediately! No! We are not going to fight for them."

-Leonid Brezhnev (On the Yom Kippur War)
mockingbird is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2016, 07:00 PM   #8
Wester547
-
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
City & State: CA.
My Country: USA.
Line Voltage: 120-125VAC 60Hz.
I'm a: Knowledge Seeker
Posts: 1,268
Default Re: KZG 6.3v 820uf replacement

Quote:
Originally Posted by mockingbird View Post
If they're based on the same electrolyte as KZG and KZJ, then wouldn't you agree that they're not worth using?

I'll send an email to the rep and see if she sends it to me.
Please do, thank you. I emailed them for a KZV datasheet last year but didn't receive a response. But then I emailed Panasonic for a FL datasheet as well and most certainly didn't receive a response. Wouldn't expect them to give up that one so easily. KZV was discontinued at the same time that KZJ was (late 2007), so NCC may not have a datasheet anymore.

Quote:
Originally Posted by linuxguru View Post
Has anybody found the datasheet of NCC KZV? The only ones I've found are references from KZG and KZJ datasheets that show KZV as being lower impedance than those two. It also seems to be a 2000-hr endurance series, similar to Rubycon MCZ. I have a few on hand for measurements, will check if they're comparable to MCZ and Nichicon HZ. If so, they would potentially be an excellent replacement for KZG and KZJ, and generally any 8-mm diameter ultra-low ESR series for VRM output applications (I know that this is the age of polymers, but KZV are available in higher capacitances and can be directly substituted).
They are failure prone, just like KZG and KZJ (in particular, the 820uF 4V 8x25 KZVs found in the VCORE output on some rather old Dell desktops... here is one example of a failure but you will find more if you search the forum). All ultra low ESR wet electrolytic series from Chemi-con are failure prone (TMV, TMJ, KZG, KZJ, KZV, KZL, etc... possibly KZA as well but can't say for sure) and probably use the same electrolytic formula. Also, according to the engineering bulletin (for all UCC series), only 4V KZVs were made and their capacitance ranged from 820uF to 2700uF. KZV is probably about equal to MFZ, GA, and HZ, but is certainly the least reliable of the four.

Rubycon AX may not be a terrible replacement for those 820uF 6.3V 11.5mm tall KZGs - they have a higher ripple rating but a somewhat higher ESR rating as well.

Last edited by Wester547; 04-11-2016 at 07:03 PM..
Wester547 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2016, 11:10 PM   #9
linuxguru
Badcaps Veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,559
Default Re: KZG 6.3v 820uf replacement

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wester547 View Post
They are failure prone, just like KZG and KZJ (in particular, the 820uF 4V 8x25 KZVs found in the VCORE output on some rather old Dell desktops... here is one example of a failure but you will find more if you search the forum). All ultra low ESR wet electrolytic series from Chemi-con are failure prone (TMV, TMJ, KZG, KZJ, KZV, KZL, etc... possibly KZA as well but can't say for sure) and probably use the same electrolytic formula. Also, according to the engineering bulletin (for all UCC series), only 4V KZVs were made and their capacitance ranged from 820uF to 2700uF. KZV is probably about equal to MFZ, GA, and HZ, but is certainly the least reliable of the four.
It's possible that there have been failed KZVs in hot Prescott SFF VRMs, but I haven't actually seen any failed KZVs first-hand so far, but then again, I haven't seen too many KZVs at all. They were probably premium (Japan-only?) production, and may only have been used on server and workstation boards. I've certainly seen far more failures of KZG, Rubycon MCZ, Nichicon HM/HN, etc.

The KZVs I have are 820uF/4V 8x24 mm (probably similar to the ones in the Dell Dimension described above, though it's unclear if those are KZJ or KZV) which are nearly identical in dimensions to the 820uF/6.3V Japanese-production KZGs that I had mentioned earlier. Manufacturing code is 5 3 N (3).

The measurements are exceptional - ESR of 0.00 ohms (effectively sub 10-mohm, including contact resistance at the leads), and tan(delta) of 0.5%. It would be close to an ideal electrolytic, and it is very rare to find low-ESR and ultra-low ESR low-voltage electrolytics that are that linear - 0.5% is typically found in audiophile-grade electrolytics like Jelmax/Rubycon BlackGate F, Elna Cerafine and so on, and only at ratings of 50V and above.

This is an exceptional series, and I would probably re-purpose them for audiophile use for low-voltage bypass and blocking for DAC and line stages in CDPs, DACs, etc. Sub-miniature Black Gate PK is smaller (for instance, in the popular 220uF/4V 6.3mm diameter available at Parts Connexion, EBay and so on), but it is not anywhere as linear - tan(delta) on the PK measures somewhere around 2 to 3%, though it still sounds very good after run-in of 50-100 hours.

Last edited by linuxguru; 04-11-2016 at 11:29 PM.. Reason: typo, addendum
linuxguru is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2016, 11:51 PM   #10
Wester547
-
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
City & State: CA.
My Country: USA.
Line Voltage: 120-125VAC 60Hz.
I'm a: Knowledge Seeker
Posts: 1,268
Default Re: KZG 6.3v 820uf replacement

Quote:
Originally Posted by linuxguru View Post
It's possible that there have been failed KZVs in hot Prescott SFF VRMs, but I haven't actually seen any failed KZVs first-hand so far, but then again, I haven't seen too many KZVs at all. They were probably premium (Japan-only?) production, and may only have been used on server and workstation boards. I've certainly seen far more failures of KZG, Rubycon MCZ, Nichicon HM/HN, etc.
I used to think that the KZG and KZJ failures, and for that matter, many bad cap failures, etc, were only a result of thermal duress or abuse as well, until it became evident that crap series and brands are capable of outgassing without ever having bias applied to their plates or without ever having conducted any current (or otherwise unsoldered, IE failure in storage). I'm sure you've witnessed this firsthand as well. Poor raw materials and unstable electrolyte can certainly beget that kind of failure which makes me nervous about using known bad series and brands but that's just me. KZVs are relatively rare, and that's why failure is less obvious compared to KZG, KZJ, etc. The Dell Dimension 8400 isn't a SFF machine either, although the CPU heatsink is only cooled by a single exhaust fan shroud in that model.

Quote:
The KZVs I have are 820uF/4V 8x24 mm (probably similar to the ones in the Dell Dimension described above, though it's unclear if those are KZJ or KZV) which are nearly identical in dimensions to the 820uF/6.3V Japanese-production KZGs that I had mentioned earlier. Manufacturing code is 5 3 N (3).
They are likely KZV. Here is another example. That datecode would translate to March 14th, 2005, factory "3" - not sure if it's made in Japan or one of their Taiwanese factories, but Behemot may be able to clarify that. I will agree that the very early Nichicon HNs were worse than KZJ - so notoriously bad in fact that you would be hard pressed to find one that didn't blow from that time frame (2003-2004). I personally would not class MCZ down with KZG and the bad HMs/HNs. MCZ (and sometimes MBZ) seem to blow up only by way of relatively immense heat, which is characteristic of the highly H2O base electrolyte (lowering the boiling point of the electrolyte).

Quote:
The measurements are exceptional - ESR of 0.00 ohms (effectively sub 10-mohm, including contact resistance at the leads), and tan(delta) of 0.5%. It would be close to an ideal electrolytic, and it is very rare to find low-ESR and ultra-low ESR low-voltage electrolytics that are that linear - 0.5% is typically found in audiophile-grade electrolytics like Jelmax/Rubycon BlackGate F, Elna Cerafine and so on, and only at ratings of 50V and above.
Yes, I would guess KZV, and possibly TMV, are about the same grade as HZ and Samxon GA.

Last edited by Wester547; 04-12-2016 at 12:10 AM..
Wester547 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2016, 05:22 AM   #11
linuxguru
Badcaps Veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,559
Default Re: KZG 6.3v 820uf replacement

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wester547 View Post
That datecode would translate to March 14th, 2005, factory "3" - not sure if it's made in Japan or one of their Taiwanese factories, but Behemot may be able to clarify that...Yes, I would guess KZV, and possibly TMV, are about the same grade as HZ and Samxon GA.
11 years on the shelf, while still retaining spec., is no mean feat. For at least part of that time, it has been stored in sideways position, when the electrolyte no longer seals the lower bung and leads perfectly. I'm guessing that KZV will do fine as long as it is not simultaneously exposed to extreme heat as well high ripple currents. I'm doing a test recap of an older MSI Socket-A board with KZV on Vcore, just for evaluation.
linuxguru is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2016, 08:59 AM   #12
linuxguru
Badcaps Veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,559
Default Re: KZG 6.3v 820uf replacement

It has now completed several hours of burn-in running Memtest86 without a single bit-error - previously, it used to throw up a random error or two on every pass. I'd recommend KZV as an 8mm replacement for KZG and KZJ on Vcore, as long as it doesn't get too hot. I'll also be trying these for Tualatin overclocks in due course.
linuxguru is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2016, 01:31 PM   #13
mockingbird
Badcaps Veteran
 
mockingbird's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 5,391
Default Re: KZG 6.3v 820uf replacement

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wester547 View Post
Please do, thank you. I emailed them for a KZV datasheet last year but didn't receive a response. But then I emailed Panasonic for a FL datasheet as well and most certainly didn't receive a response. Wouldn't expect them to give up that one so easily. KZV was discontinued at the same time that KZJ was (late 2007), so NCC may not have a datasheet anymore.
Confirmed.

They were discontinued in 2007.

The ratings are absolutely identical to Nichicon HZ.
mockingbird is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2016, 06:41 PM   #14
linuxguru
Badcaps Veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,559
Default Re: KZG 6.3v 820uf replacement

Quote:
Originally Posted by mockingbird View Post
The ratings are absolutely identical to Nichicon HZ.
Thanks, I'll mop up the NOS lot (not many, but enough for some critical 8 mm recaps including mini-ITX Atoms) today.
linuxguru is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2016, 07:43 PM   #15
Wester547
-
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
City & State: CA.
My Country: USA.
Line Voltage: 120-125VAC 60Hz.
I'm a: Knowledge Seeker
Posts: 1,268
Default Re: KZG 6.3v 820uf replacement

Quote:
Originally Posted by mockingbird View Post
Confirmed.

They were discontinued in 2007.

The ratings are absolutely identical to Nichicon HZ.
Not to pry, but did they send you a datasheet or did they confirm that the series is a direct cross to HZ and that they no longer have a datasheet?
Wester547 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2023, 05:08 AM   #16
Glishaso
SkyNeTech
 
Join Date: Dec 2022
City & State: Sombor/Vojvodina
My Country: Serbia
Line Voltage: 220
I'm a: Knowledge Seeker
Posts: 6
Default Re: KZG 6.3v 820uf replacement

So quicks question i have mini atx motherboard with blown capacitors 820F 6.3v can i replace them with 1000F 25v (its only what i have atm here so just wondering to get proffesional answer on this tnx ! . its little confusing many says yes many says no so i thinkl this is best place to be asked: )
Glishaso is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-02-2023, 05:44 AM   #17
andrewsawesomr
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2022
City & State: Nazareth, Pennsylvania
My Country: United States of America
Line Voltage: 120VAC 60Hz
I'm a: Knowledge Seeker
Posts: 63
Default Re: KZG 6.3v 820uf replacement

Quote:
Originally Posted by Glishaso View Post
So quicks question i have mini atx motherboard with blown capacitors 820F 6.3v can i replace them with 1000F 25v
What brand and series are the original capacitors? What brand and series are the replacements?
andrewsawesomr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-02-2023, 02:32 PM   #18
momaka
master hoarder
 
momaka's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
City & State: VA (NoVA)
My Country: U.S.A.
Line Voltage: 120 VAC, 60 Hz
I'm a: Hobbyist Tech
Posts: 11,249
Default Re: KZG 6.3v 820uf replacement

Quote:
Originally Posted by Glishaso View Post
So quicks question i have mini atx motherboard with blown capacitors 820F 6.3v can i replace them with 1000F 25v (its only what i have atm here so just wondering to get proffesional answer on this tnx ! . its little confusing many says yes many says no so i thinkl this is best place to be asked: )
Short answer: YES**
But please note the considerations below.

----------------

** considerations:

KZG are ultra-low ESR series capacitors, made specifically for motherboards.
That being said, not all capacitors on a motherboard need to be ultra-low ESR (only the ones close to the CPU - i.e. the CPU VRM... and any other buck-regulated supplies.)

So depending on where the capacitor(s) are located on the motherboard, you may or may not be able to replace them with just any random non-ultra low-ESR capacitor brand. For example, for the CPU VRM (V_core), you really need ultra-low ESR caps. If you put regular (general purpose) caps, the motherboard may not work. Or, in the case that it does work but if the new capacitors are not ultra-low ESR, then the new caps may not last very long, especially if they are a cheap obscure brand no one has heard of.

In any case, any capacitor will be better than a bulged / leaking KZG, so give it a try. But if the motherboard still does not work, then either your new capacitors are not good enough, or there is a fault with the motherboard somewhere else as well. On the other hand, if the motherboard does end up working, consider the repair temporary, unless you used proper low ESR capacitors from a reputable brand.

As far as the voltage rating goes (i.e. using 25V-rated cap for a spot that had a 6.3V-rated cap)... that's totally fine. The only consideration then would be that your 25V caps will likely be much larger and not fit properly.
momaka is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2023, 06:34 AM   #19
ChaosLegionnaire
HC Overclocker
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
City & State: Singapore
My Country: Singapore
Line Voltage: 240VAC 50Hz
I'm a: Hobbyist Tech
Posts: 3,056
Default Re: KZG 6.3v 820uf replacement

well, thats the problem with internet forums. ppl post vague questions while providing vague information and expect a straight answer.

well, we're neither telepathic nor clairvoyant and we cant read your mind or see what u see so u have to provide that info for us. so we cant give you an answer until u provide proper information for us.
ChaosLegionnaire is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



Badcaps.net Technical Forums 2003 - 2023
Powered by vBulletin ®
Copyright ©2000 - 2023, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:55 PM.
Did you find this forum helpful?