Alright, what the HELL is going on here?!

[weirdlookinguy]

Guys, I am at my wit's end. At my parent's house, we have had broadband internet for 5 years and we are on our FOURTH router.

-First an 802.11b Netgear way back in late 2005. The most stable router we have ever had. It was slow (11b) but I should have held onto that one. I replaced it because I wanted 802.11g for my laptop.

-Then some D-Link WBR-something piece of shit. It ran great for about a year, then it went to shit. Network was really flaky, wired LAN would drop out and wifi throughput was horrendous.

-Then a Linksys WRT54GL. I loaded it up with DD-WRT v23 SP1 the day we got it, and she ran magnificently for months. Then at about the 1 year mark the internet started getting flaky. Reboots were necessary often. It got to the point to where I had to reset it every time someone needed the internet. I'm not home half the time and my entire family uses the wifi so it just recently got replaced with....

-A brand new Linksys E2000 (or some model number close to that). 802.11n wireless, gigabit ethernet. Now two or three weeks in, IT NEEDS TO BE REBOOTED ABOUT ONCE A DAY. WHAT. THE. FUCK. Aside from that, ever since I put it in, I've been getting complaints from the fam bam about flaky wifi.

It's the same cycle with every router. I put it in, it runs great for a while, then it becomes a flaky POS. Except the newest router keeps crashing and it's only ~three weeks old or so.

I know it's not the DSL modem because I just recently recapped it, and not only that but when our internet goes down I only reset the router and everything comes back up. I never have to mess with the modem.

Can someone who knows about networking enlighten me? Why in the hell can I not achieve reliable, maintenance-free networking? I have friends with old-ass Linksys routers and they never give them any crap. When I inquire they tell me that it just works and they never have to mess with it.

What am I missing here?

[Wizard]

Re: Alright, what the HELL is going on here?!

Tried Dlink DIR-655? I have bought second one for my shop, first one is working well for long time and heavy use for more than a year, quality caps inside and three external antennas. Good chipsets including broadcom.

I used to have WBR-xxxx Dlink, had so much problems (used Realtek chipset).

Your Cicso Linksys E2000 supports WRT-DD but I don't like the internals, eg left off too much components as found the info in one of forums on the quick google on the net.

Cheers, Wizard

[kc8adu]

Re: Alright, what the HELL is going on here?!

recap the wrt54gl.
should then be rock solid.recap the wallwart if its the lightweight bathtub one.
your symptoms point dead at bad caps.

[weirdlookinguy]

Re: Alright, what the HELL is going on here?!

I'm going to try loading DD-WRT on the new E2000 first. If that doesn't help then I will return it and recap the WRT54GL.

The router serves my computer via LAN, two computers that get used daily via wifi, an iPod touch for my brother, and my laptop. I need something solid! I hate when I get home and before I've even kicked off my shoes I get bitched at for the internet crapping out.

EDIT: the power adapter for the WRT54GL is indeed one of the super lightweight bathtub ones. I'll see if I can crack it open to take a look.

Even if I can get the E2000 to work reliably, I want the WRT54GL running. Two solid routers with DD-WRT=endless possibilities.

[yyonline]

Re: Alright, what the HELL is going on here?!

I usually recap the WRT54GL with 4x 25V 220uF Panasonic FM. Linksys used whatever they could grab that week, but they're always 220uF (at least that I've seen). Voltages are usually 16 or 25, and the ESR is all over the place (specs, not measured). So I don't think they need to be as low ESR as FM, but FM seems to work well for the several routers I've recapped. Watch out though, the boards in them use cheap solder mask that flakes off very easy.

I had similar issues with frying routers and cable modems. Turns out our incoming cable line was grounded improperly. Comcast came out and fixed that free of charge and we had no problems in the 2 years since. We have since dropped Comcast in favor of FiOS, but I'm fairly confident that correcting the grounding did fix the modem and routers dying every 6 months.

My current router is a WRT54G-TM, which is a GL with double the ram and flash. It's been recapped with FM and performs decently with a 25Mbit speed connection.

A lot of the stock firmwares have "sticky" NAT tables where the entries take a very long time to expire. This can cause issues if you game or use p2p...anything that's going to contact tons of addresses at one time. A reboot clears the NAT table and restores internet functionality.

[severach]

Re: Alright, what the HELL is going on here?!

I'm finding the same problem in all of these low cost routers: bean counters cutting prices. It's hard to cut the price of chips since they don't sub to cheaper chips easily. Capacitors are easy to cut because they all work the same, right? So they cut the capacitors to the very edge of failure. The uf and ESR are barely sufficient for the product to work. Then when the ESR goes up just a little bit, the product fails. The cap doesn't bulge and hasn't failed. It just changes spec a bit as was expected and the product now requires constant reboots to keep functional.

Fortunately fixing these routers is easy. Often all that is needed is to replace the cap after the SMPS with one about 4x the uf and much less ESR. I typically replace no name 220-470uf caps with 820-1500uf caps with the ESR of Rubycon MBZ or better.

A few minutes with a scope will tell where other improvement is needed.

[EdoNork]

Re: Alright, what the HELL is going on here?!

A few minutes with a scope will tell where other improvement is needed.

How? I'm here to learn
Thanks.

[delaware74b]

Re: Alright, what the HELL is going on here?!

I had similar issues with frying routers and cable modems. Turns out our incoming cable line was grounded improperly. Comcast came out and fixed that free of charge and we had no problems in the 2 years since.

It's an ongoing issue with Comcast and their installation methods. The state board of inspections in De needs to ban their practices of grounding. I've seen the aftermath of their 'grounding'. I had a service call after a lighting strike where the cable was directly hit by lightning. It followed into the house, blew up the digital voice/cable modem, fried the computer, surge protector, all switches and outlets on that circuit. It also followed back up the cable wire around the back of the house to the opposite side at their 'ground'. The ground method: meter pan bar-clamp.

It is NOT a good ground. You're depending on the power company's 'grounded neutral' for a ground. One lighting strike near any power line in the area and you're done.

I've seen them put the clamp-bar on the meter instead of using a split-bolt connector to attach to the building ground wire, which is THREE FEET SHORTER than using the meter pan. My current instructions are to remove it under company policy and to relocate it to the building grounding point. We've never had customer complaints in regards to the connection being relocated.

[yyonline]

Re: Alright, what the HELL is going on here?!

meter pan bar-clamp.

Grr...that is indeed what they installed. At least I think it is. It's definitely a clamp on the meter of some sort. Either way, it is a slight improvement over the old "ground" which was a foot of bare wire buried 3 inches in the garden.

[NxB]

Re: Alright, what the HELL is going on here?!

Does putting the higher value caps do anything for the router? I've always replaced like for like on these or just gone slightly higher. What about low ESR vs GP? Aren't the caps in a place where it doesn't matter?

[Krankshaft]

Re: Alright, what the HELL is going on here?!

My cable ground is 14 gauge copper and it runs across the basement to the metal main water pipe where a screw down clamp secures it to the pipe.

My house is grounded in two places the service panel ground is tied to a ground rod outside and another wire also originating from the box runs to the water pipe and is clamped to it. So technically the cable wire is grounded to the main grounding rod outside via this secondary ground path.

I always wondered why did they run a secondary ground from the panel to the water main? Redundancy?

My neighbors have that crappy ground wire running to their electric meter metal conduit as mentioned. They couldn't do that at my house because the electrical service drop is on the opposite side of the house from the cable and phone drops and most importantly even if they were on the right side my electrical conduits are plastic . So the installer couldn't half ass it.

[Toasty]

Re: Alright, what the HELL is going on here?!

Double grounding is -not- recommended unless there is a specific reason (location/distance) to the primary termination (ground rod or copper water main from street). Then a suitable conductor must be used between them to insure equivalent potential at both points. NO splices.

i.e. - a BIG mofo conductor between both grounds - 2/0 or greater

Biggest problem is not strikes on transformers or wires. The ones that really crisp the bacon are ground (earth) strikes.

Toast

Also note: Many of the newer constructed houses use a plastic supply from the street main. There is no ground to the water pipe anymore. NEC requires a ground rod at -each- service disconnect panel now. Sub-panels must run their grounds back to the main panel.

@Krankshaft - I would improve that ground with at least a #8 wire. #14 is much too light.

[Krankshaft]

Re: Alright, what the HELL is going on here?!

According to the NEC I remember reading for cable drops (not satellite) 14 gauge is bare minimum isn't it great that the cable co is looking out for me giving me the bare minimum? Sounds like saving on copper while keeping within code to me.

When it thaws outside and isn't cold as hell in the basement I'll get to it.

[severach]

Re: Alright, what the HELL is going on here?!

How? I'm here to learn

Find all the on board power supplies and scope them. Apply test capacitors across existing caps to see if a substantial ripple reduction is possible. Practice on cheap stuff that is more likely to need improvement and isn't a big deal when testing accidents burn stuff out.

Does putting the higher value caps do anything for the router? I've always replaced like for like on these or just gone slightly higher. What about low ESR vs GP? Aren't the caps in a place where it doesn't matter?

Better caps reduce ripple. The more stable the supply voltages the less likely the microprocessor and other chips will lock up. Replacing like with like would work if the ones coming out were properly spec'd. I'm finding the consumer routers fail long before the caps fail which suggests to me that the caps are way under spec and would still be under spec even if high quality capacitors were used that don't degrade within a few months. Commercial routers don't skimp on the capacitors.

Most of these routers have an SMPS power supply or an on board SMPS which makes low ESR caps necessary. In some cases loads backfeed high frequency into the supplies which require low ESR caps to eliminate.

Chances are all of those crappy routers will become rock solid with the right capacitor changes.

[severach]

Re: Alright, what the HELL is going on here?!

I always wondered why did they run a secondary ground from the panel to the water main? Redundancy?

Incompetence! Multiple grounds create ground loops. This extra ground may result in lightning strikes burning out your well pump or ground current may eat away the water pipes and make them leak. One bad ground is better than two good ones.

You own lightning when you protect and ground all your services like cable, satellite, network, phone, and power at a single point. As soon as the grounds separate, lightning owns you!

[number22]

Re: Alright, what the HELL is going on here?!

Incompetence! Multiple grounds create ground loops. This extra ground may result in lightning strikes burning out your well pump or ground current may eat away the water pipes and make them leak. One bad ground is better than two good ones.

I have this question about ground current, how do I eliminate it, or minimizing from my house to garage, which are ~20 foot apart, both buildings has grounds, do I have to connect both of points of ground with gauge 8 wire? And main power line pole is about another 20 foot away different direction which has one solid ground on it.

[Toasty]

Re: Alright, what the HELL is going on here?!

Yeah. There's a pile of crap site. L.O.U.S.Y. instructions. Oh, they go on and on ad nauseum, but in the end, useless.

Download the 5 files. (But don't tell anyone which ones to run in what order) BRILLIANT!

Toss 1 WRT54GS in the bin. What a waste, and 3 new FM's to boot.

Fuckin' eggheads.

I'm going to try loading DD-WRT on the new E2000 first. If that doesn't help then I will return it and recap the WRT54GL.

The router serves my computer via LAN, two computers that get used daily via wifi, an iPod touch for my brother, and my laptop. I need something solid! I hate when I get home and before I've even kicked off my shoes I get bitched at for the internet crapping out.

EDIT: the power adapter for the WRT54GL is indeed one of the super lightweight bathtub ones. I'll see if I can crack it open to take a look.

Even if I can get the E2000 to work reliably, I want the WRT54GL running. Two solid routers with DD-WRT=endless possibilities.

[weirdlookinguy]

Re: Alright, what the HELL is going on here?!

I was able to successfully load DD-WRT on the E2000. v24-sp2. It's been a week so far and she is ROCK SOLID now! Looks like the original Cisco firmware was crap.

I am going to recap the E2000 when I get a chance.

Can anybody tell me how to get those power bricks open without marring the case?

[kc8adu]

Re: Alright, what the HELL is going on here?!

you bricked it?
most are easy to recover.go fish it out of the bin.
worst case you reflash with jtag.i have gotten a few pre bricked where the caps were bad and an idiot tried to flash it while unstable.

Yeah. There's a pile of crap site. L.O.U.S.Y. instructions. Oh, they go on and on ad nauseum, but in the end, useless.

Download the 5 files. (But don't tell anyone which ones to run in what order) BRILLIANT!

Toss 1 WRT54GS in the bin. What a waste, and 3 new FM's to boot.

Fuckin' eggheads.

[retiredcaps]

Re: Alright, what the HELL is going on here?!

you bricked it?

I think he means the getting the power ac adapter open to recap?