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Old 04-20-2021, 08:11 AM   #1681
Per Hansson
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Default Re: the gutless, bloated, and fried power supply hall of shame

That's a new one: it is a board designed for a 80mm side fan where they instead mounted a 120mm top fan to make it look modern, lol!
The plastic baffle on the fan is common: it makes sure to direct the airflow over the PCB.
Without it the air would take the easy way out skipping the PCB.
It is of course moreso important in a PSU like this where as you say 1/3 of the case is empty
PSU itself does not look too shabby though, I'm sure it could deliver 200w without exploding
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Old 04-20-2021, 09:23 AM   #1682
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Default Re: the gutless, bloated, and fried power supply hall of shame

Quote:
Originally Posted by Per Hansson View Post
That's a new one: it is a board designed for a 80mm side fan where they instead mounted a 120mm top fan to make it look modern, lol!
I was thinking that as well....but every PSU I've see with a 120mm fan in the bottom side had a PCB that consumed the entire depth of the case

Quote:
Originally Posted by Per Hansson View Post
The plastic baffle on the fan is common: it makes sure to direct the airflow over the PCB.
I had never seen that before.... I figured it had to be some reason like that...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Per Hansson View Post
Without it the air would take the easy way out skipping the PCB.
It is of course moreso important in a PSU like this where as you say 1/3 of the case is empty
In depth measurement, 1/3 empty is an accurate number!!!

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Originally Posted by Per Hansson View Post
PSU itself does not look too shabby though, I'm sure it could deliver 200w without exploding
Well, that's about half what it's rated for...
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Old 04-20-2021, 07:09 PM   #1683
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Default Re: the gutless, bloated, and fried power supply hall of shame

With those heatsinks it might be good for 200-250 Watts. Unless those input caps are extra tall they look a bit small for 680uF. 470uF seems more plausible. The output inductor looks pretty wimpy, too, and since it's -26 material it's probably a ~30KHz half bridge design.
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Old 04-20-2021, 07:27 PM   #1684
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Default Re: the gutless, bloated, and fried power supply hall of shame

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Originally Posted by Topcat View Post
Here's a super junky PSU, reported here at Per's request!

The junker in question is a "Manhattan PUF405S" ATX power supply.
That's a funny model number: PUF....
I guess they mean the thing will go *poof* at 400 Watts.

In all honestly, though, this is actually not a bad power supply at all. It surely won't do 400 Watts, but 200 Watts will probably be just OK... so more or less enough for a basic modern system with a built-in or very low-end GPU.

Going by this picture...
https://www.badcaps.net/forum/attach...1&d=1618858628
... I can tell you that the green transformers and the style of those QC stickers makes this one 100% a CWT (Channel Well) unit. I think this is a replacement for their old budget-oriented ISO series line from a few decades ago. I actually have a very similar ThermalTake PSU, but with a 80 mm fan. Model number was something like TR420 or similar (implying 420 Watts? ) I've been meaning to take pictures of it, post it here, and then recap it... but just have been working on other PSUs instead and this one's been on the back burner for a few years, given that it's not really "spectacular" in any way, as you noted yourself.

That said, it does appear to be a single-transistor forward unit (probably designed around a UC384x IC), so it won't do too bad efficiency-wise (mid 70's or low 80's %, perhaps) and should be pretty safe to use in any modern PC. The 5V/12V combined output inductor seems decently sized for that task, despite being a lower-tier Micrometals -26 type core (T103-26?) So the 12V rail should be able to handle the bulk of the load, as is expected from a modern PSU today. However, the tiny 3.3V output toroid is puny. Will definitely have to be careful what system this powers up - i.e. possibly avoid motherboards with really power-hungry chipsets that get power from the 3.3V rail (or older motherboards where the CPU V_tt is generated from the 3.3V rail and the CPU is power-hungry, like a socket 775 Pentium 4/D or similar)... though that's hardly an issue these days. This PSU certainly won't be happy with an old 5V-heavy either... or just any very old system in general.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Topcat View Post
That's actually very common in A LOT of PSUs with 120/140 mm top-side fans. As Per noted, it diverts the airflow so that that air starts from the front of the PSU, passes through the heatsinks and components, and then exits through the back vent. Otherwise, PSU may end up with places with small air vortexes and develop hot spots. So this helps that.

You might have not seen it in other PSUs, because they typically use clear plastic sheets. But this being a budget PSU, I guess CWT used whatever was the cheapest. Just doesn't look too pretty. (And if I may add, that blue fan looks rather tacky too.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Topcat View Post
More of the puny sinks. Secondary caps are Samxon GF series, known to be a bit problematic....but these appear to be good...

https://www.badcaps.net/forum/attach...1&d=1618858628
Yup, that's exactly what's in my ThermalTake CWT PSU. Most, if not all (IIRC) of the caps were 1000 uF, 8 mm diameter, though I think I remember seeing a spot or two for 10 mm caps (but they still fitted 8 mm caps.) So yeah, given the output capacity, it certainly shouldn't be pushed past 200 Watts for noise to stay reasonable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Topcat View Post
Recapping it would likely smooth that out....but this one is just not worth it....I just wanted to autopsy it.
IDK man.
I recall not too long ago you included a recapped Allied or some similar unit in a low-end built. I think this PSU is better than most Allied/Deer/Solytech units overall. It's got full input EMI/RFI filter (at least for its real power rating of 200-250 Watts), proper bridge rectifier, properly-rated input wiring (looks like 600V), and normal-sized main transformer (appears to be ERL/EI35... though even ERL/EI33 will do for 200-250 Watts.) The nicest thing about it is actually the fact that it lacks APFC. Sure those input caps are a crappy (JunFu) brand. But with no APFC, those will likely outlast the primary caps of every APFC PSU - even ones with Japanese caps.
That said, if you do re-consider recapping it, first just check the output rectifier size on the 12V rail. If it's a 20 Amp part or better, it will do just fine - even with those tiny heatsinks - for a modern basic system. Only other issue you might run into is finding 8 mm caps for the output... but them being 1000 uF mostly (at least from what I recall from my PSU), it should be doable. For the 3.3V rail (and probably 5V rail too), you could use Rubycon ZLH 10V, 1500 uF (which you have in stock in your store, last time I bought caps from you - I still have a couple of these left in case of "emergencies" ).

All in all, this PSU looks not too far off from what you'd find in a modern Dell or HP with a Bestec or AcBel PSU. Heck, even modern Delta, LiteOn, and HiPro OEM PSUs aren't too far from this anymore - they all make them rather "light" now with barely any heatsinks, since most of the load is on the 12V rail and there just isn't as much heat generated.

Last edited by momaka; 04-20-2021 at 07:43 PM..
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Old 04-20-2021, 07:39 PM   #1685
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Default Re: the gutless, bloated, and fried power supply hall of shame

^
I may set it aside for a modern SOC system, they are ridiculously efficient & kind to all rails.... The system it was powering was an Athlon XP 2600 w/ 9550 GPU, and was not the original; it was far too new for the era of the system. The system was stable for the most part, but under gaming type loads, it got miserably hot and I'd get random errors & lockups. It got even worse when testing with a 9800 (thought the GPU was bad at first, some of the symptoms were artifacting). I did try a different PSU, it fixed the issue before the system was dismantled. I'm not trusting of any of hte lytics in it, including the mains...and wouldn't even consider reuse until recapped.... I'm still undecided on whether I'll recap it or not. I couldn't believe how light duty the wires are....very fine gauge.
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Old 04-20-2021, 08:09 PM   #1686
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Default Re: the gutless, bloated, and fried power supply hall of shame

Quote:
Originally Posted by PeteS in CA View Post
Unless those input caps are extra tall they look a bit small for 680uF. 470uF seems more plausible.
Yup, quite possible. Or they may be 560 uF, which is a standard size between 470 and 680. Not that it should matter too much, as even 470 uF will be fine for 200-250 Watts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PeteS in CA View Post
The output inductor looks pretty wimpy, too, and since it's -26 material it's probably a ~30KHz half bridge design.
Only 2 transformers in the PSU, so this is (and from what I recall from briefly analyzing my unit a few years ago) single-transistor forward design.

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Originally Posted by Topcat View Post
I may set it aside for a modern SOC system, they are ridiculously efficient & kind to all rails....
Yup, I was going to suggest exactly that. I saved mine for the same reason.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Topcat View Post
The system it was powering was an Athlon XP 2600 w/ 9550 GPU, and was not the original; it was far too new for the era of the system. The system was stable for the most part, but under gaming type loads, it got miserably hot and I'd get random errors & lockups.
Oof!
That's a really 5V/3.3V heavy combo right there. I'm surprised it didn't have a meltdown when you tried it with the Radeon 9800 (about 50 Watts from the 3.3V/5V rails just by itself.)

I've been abusing a lot of my recapped PSUs lately with a cheapo load tester I'm making - mostly doing just heavy 5V or 12V cross-loading tests while also bogging the PSUs down with a low line AC input, like I did with my KDMPower MIPC MI-X8775CD here.

From these tests, one thing I have concluded for sure is that a 5V-heavy cross-load will heat up things a lot more than a 12V-heavy cross load, because to draw the same amount of power, the current at 5V is much higher. So higher current multiplied by the voltage drop of a Schottky diode typically gives higher heat dissipation on the secondary heatsink. In my tests, I was able to get most PSUs to easily touch 60-65C on the secondary heatsink with a 5V-heavy load at room temperature. Same test with 12V-heavy load was about 10C lower temperatures... though that did vary a little bit between PSUs, depending if they also had Schottky vs. FR rectifiers for the 12V rail and if the 12V rail was ganged to the 5V rail output (more modern group-regulation design that yields better stability, but slightly less efficient.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Topcat View Post
I'm not trusting of any of hte lytics in it, including the mains...
Well, if you do have spare input/HV/mains caps, go for it. They rarely fail, though, at least in these non-APFC PSUs. So long as the primary heatsink next to them doesn't get crazy-hot, they should survive for many many years. I still have Deer PSUs with original JEE input/primary caps - some of these being over 20 years old now. Did check one somewhat recently, and it was perfectly in spec.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Topcat View Post
I'm still undecided on whether I'll recap it or not. I couldn't believe how light duty the wires are....very fine gauge.
They might be 20 AWG copper, which could make them feel very thin and very soft. I pulled similar wires from an old JNC PSU. Saw the wires had a proper UL number, so OK'ed em for re-use on a 180-Watt Bestec PSU that had its wires cut. This was many years ago (over a decade, even?) Still have that Bestec PSU and use it for testing.

Last edited by momaka; 04-20-2021 at 08:15 PM..
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Old 04-20-2021, 08:26 PM   #1687
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Default Re: the gutless, bloated, and fried power supply hall of shame

Quote:
Originally Posted by Topcat View Post
Here's a super junky PSU. The junker in question is a "Manhattan PUF405S" ATX power supply.

Recapping it would likely smooth that out....but this one is just not worth it....I just wanted to autopsy it.
not sure if that psu has apfc or not, judging by how barebones it is. but if it doesnt have apfc, then thats one good redeeming quality about it because apfc is shit and kills psus.

the second redeeming thing is that i like the fan which is a yate loon judging by the fan sticker. its a sleeve bearing to boot. i like yate loon sleeve bearing fans because they are cheap and cool well for the price while being quiet too. the only thing is that they need constant regular lubrication to work so i have a few of those types of YL fans and know how to deal with its quirks, so thats fine for me.

so sell it on junkbay for some loose change? im sure some of the psu guys here in this subforum wouldnt mind a 10 dollar ebay junk psu special offer. how bad can it be? we have a few threads on here just like that! hehehe!
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Old 04-21-2021, 08:03 PM   #1688
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Default Re: the gutless, bloated, and fried power supply hall of shame

Quote:
Originally Posted by momaka View Post
I've been abusing a lot of my recapped PSUs lately with a cheapo load tester I'm making - mostly doing just heavy 5V or 12V cross-loading tests while also bogging the PSUs down with a low line AC input, like I did with my KDMPower MIPC MI-X8775CD here.
I've been working on a load tester as well....you'll be able to figure out what for if paying attention to any of my other build threads. This is the design I've been building it around with a few revisions of my own......but I'm glad to know I'm not the only one that's doing this.
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Old 04-22-2021, 03:14 PM   #1689
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Default Re: the gutless, bloated, and fried power supply hall of shame

Back in ancient times (the 20th Century!) I designed a quick go--no-go tester for ATX PSUs. I had resistors for each output, some sort of nominal load. The "cool" part was that I had a window-detector circuit for each output that drove LEDs. Each window detector used two TL430s (basically as a comparator with a reference on one input), with one stage checking if an output was too high, and the other checking if the output was too low. Dual comparators plus a reference IC could have been used, but what I did used less space and was more flexible. If an output was within spec, within the window, the LED would be on. It was in an ATX case. I ran it all, fan included, from a 9 volt battery. I should have run the fan from the PSU's 12V output, as the tester ate batteries.
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Old 04-22-2021, 10:55 PM   #1690
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Default Re: the gutless, bloated, and fried power supply hall of shame

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChaosLegionnaire View Post
not sure if that psu has apfc or not, judging by how barebones it is.
Voltage selector switch is a tell-tale sign there won't be APFC.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChaosLegionnaire View Post
i like yate loon sleeve bearing fans because they are cheap and cool well for the price while being quiet too. the only thing is that they need constant regular lubrication to work so i have a few of those types of YL fans and know how to deal with its quirks, so thats fine for me.
I like them too.
They don't need constant lubrication. Just a proper one done once.
Clean up old grease well (with dry paper). Then scratch light "grooves" in the sleeve bearing parallel to the shaft. After that, clean everything with IPA and add machine oil. So long as the bearing is not too worn out, the oil should hold well for a good few years at least.

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Originally Posted by ChaosLegionnaire View Post
so sell it on junkbay for some loose change? im sure some of the psu guys here in this subforum wouldnt mind a 10 dollar ebay junk psu special offer.
Nah, don't make a crappy PSU someone else's problem.
Besides, what if none of us buy it? Then it really will become someone else's problem and possibly send more hardware to the dump / trash. Better to either fix the PSU right or just dismantle it for parts so that it can't be used as a PSU anymore.

Also, $10 for a junky PSU? - HA!
I've been buying them for $1-2 a pop lately. Shipping is another story... but I typically try to stay under $12-13 total, unless it's a more decent PSU - then I might go up to $15, lol.
Been noticing a lot of Bestec ATX-250's lately (12Z, not the "killer" types) - some working and some for parts... but they all need new caps at this point, regardless of the description. These are good basic 250W PSUs for SOC PCs and/or basic PCs. Have one I recapped 10 years ago (or thereabouts) and still working fine, being bounced around various temporary builds.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Topcat View Post
I've been working on a load tester as well....you'll be able to figure out what for if paying attention to any of my other build threads.
Cool!
Will see if I can. Haven't checked threads as thoroughly lately on BCN in the last few weeks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Topcat View Post
This is the design I've been building it around with a few revisions of my own......but I'm glad to know I'm not the only one that's doing this.
Oh, that's too clean-looking for my taste.

Mine's still a "bird's nest" on the floor as I'm playing around with how to configure it best. The heart and soul of the whole thing is based around a 3000 Watt, 240V dryer heating element that I found discarded in a dumpster a few years back. It's got exposed Nichrome wire heating element, making it easy to tap to any resistance I want. So technically, I could wire it for up to 3000 Watts. 0.o But I'll probably settle for 360-720 Watts... which should still be plenty, I think.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PeteS in CA View Post
Back in ancient times (the 20th Century!) I designed a quick go--no-go tester for ATX PSUs. I had resistors for each output, some sort of nominal load. The "cool" part was that I had a window-detector circuit for each output that drove LEDs. Each window detector used two TL430s (basically as a comparator with a reference on one input), with one stage checking if an output was too high, and the other checking if the output was too low. Dual comparators plus a reference IC could have been used, but what I did used less space and was more flexible. If an output was within spec, within the window, the LED would be on. It was in an ATX case. I ran it all, fan included, from a 9 volt battery. I should have run the fan from the PSU's 12V output, as the tester ate batteries.
Nice.

Well, nowadays, they make such testers for about $5-7... or $10 if you want one with an LCD display that tells you the voltages (down to 1 decimal place.) I actually thought about getting one of those for mine and then simply just wire my loads to it, since it has all of the connectors and whatnot (I'm still debating about doing that.) But for now, I'm going to keep it as simple and cheap as possible, using only junk/scrap parts I have accumulated.

Last edited by momaka; 04-22-2021 at 10:58 PM..
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