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ESR Mania

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    ESR Mania

    I recently repaired some power & video boards found in Gateway monitors (built by Samsung) suffering with the capacitor plague of 2005. I had purchased a number of these years ago when they were being liquidated on eBay. Well, I guess "dumped" would be a better phrase since sellers who had no knowledge of electronics were in a panic to get rid of them since warranties had run out.

    There has been some talk of capacitor ESR so just for grins, I included some of the Panasonic FR series in my last parts order to replenish my parts cabinets. The majority of electrolytics I use are the NHG standard series but wanted to recap one machine in particular with low ESR. As expected, there was no noticeable difference visually or when taking voltage readings. Probably due to the fact that my application is not mil spec or some specialized device. The price difference is not significant so I see nothing wrong with seeking out low ESR caps when available.

    But here lies the crux of the problem. It's been my experience that foreign manufactures are only interested in selling products with no attention given to essential items like schematic diagrams, pictorial drawings, parts lists, and trouble shooting flow charts & procedures. Further, when you look at the side of an existing capacitor, you typically only see the capacitance, voltage rating, and temperature. If lucky, some have a logo & series stamped on them and can be found during a lookup. I estimate few electronics enthusiasts even bother with this. If it walks like a capacitor and quacks like a capacitor, we'll just grab an 85 degree from Radio Shack.

    Which leads to expensive ESR meters. Quite the expensive tool for a one time use in my opinion. Capacitors have a finite life span and their age should be taken into consideration before using. I always buy new ones of the correct series for repair projects then check them on the capacitance meter to see if within tolerance. Perhaps someday there will be a more dependable yet affordable replacement for the annoying and problematic electrolytic.

    I notice higher end computer motherboards designed for over-clocking are completely void of electrolytic types. Too bad the same can't be said for computer power supplies.

    #2
    Re: ESR Mania

    I know, right!? You'd think that we'd go almost ALL polymer caps nowadays!!
    Don't buy those $10 PSU "specials". They fail, and they have taken whole computers with them.

    My computer doubles as a space heater.

    Permanently Retired Systems:
    RIP Advantech UNO-3072LA (2008-2021) - Decommissioned and taken out of service permanently due to lack of software support for it. Not very likely to ever be recommissioned again.
    Asus Q550LF (Old main laptop, 2014-2022) - Decommissioned and stripped due to a myriad of problems, the main battery bloating being the final nail in the coffin.


    Kooky and Kool Systems
    - 1996 Power Macintosh 7200/120 + PC Compatibility Card - Under Restoration
    - 1993 Gateway 2000 80486DX/50 - Fully Operational/WIP
    - 2004 Athlon 64 Retro Gaming System - Indefinitely Parked
    - Main Workstation - Fully operational!

    sigpic

    Comment


      #3
      Re: ESR Mania

      they dont last forever,
      i have pulled old sanyo purple-sleeve poly's and unknown printed-can types from stuff and found the leakage rising and capacitance dropping.
      ESR seems stable though.

      Comment


        #4
        Re: ESR Mania

        and the culprit? usually the psu imo and ime (in my experience). have a gigabyte mobo with fujitsu fpcaps that was killed by a fuh-joo-yoo psu. even if polys have high ripple current handling capability, dont push your luck!

        power supplies cant use polys because they dont come in high capacitance. psus need 2200-3300uF caps for some of the rails. hard to make a poly with that high capacitance. the esr may also be too low for polys and the switching regulator doesnt like it. it wants normal low esr not ultra low esr.

        Comment


          #5
          Re: ESR Mania

          well couldn't some engineers make a normal low ESR poly formula above 5000uF? Or is that way too impractical?
          Don't buy those $10 PSU "specials". They fail, and they have taken whole computers with them.

          My computer doubles as a space heater.

          Permanently Retired Systems:
          RIP Advantech UNO-3072LA (2008-2021) - Decommissioned and taken out of service permanently due to lack of software support for it. Not very likely to ever be recommissioned again.
          Asus Q550LF (Old main laptop, 2014-2022) - Decommissioned and stripped due to a myriad of problems, the main battery bloating being the final nail in the coffin.


          Kooky and Kool Systems
          - 1996 Power Macintosh 7200/120 + PC Compatibility Card - Under Restoration
          - 1993 Gateway 2000 80486DX/50 - Fully Operational/WIP
          - 2004 Athlon 64 Retro Gaming System - Indefinitely Parked
          - Main Workstation - Fully operational!

          sigpic

          Comment


            #6
            Re: ESR Mania

            Well maybe some day. I hear the Japanese have invented radios without tubes.

            Comment


              #7
              Re: ESR Mania

              Originally posted by Mint Waxed View Post
              It's been my experience that foreign manufactures are only interested in selling products with no attention given to essential items like schematic diagrams, pictorial drawings, parts lists, and trouble shooting flow charts & procedures.
              "Foreign" manufacturers?

              Name me one manufacturer of monitors (or pretty much anything) from the USA.

              Why are you using foreign Panasonic capacitors by the way? No attention to detail.

              Competent ESR meters can be bought for less than the price of a decent soldering iron.
              Last edited by jjne; 09-26-2016, 11:28 PM.

              Comment


                #8
                Re: ESR Mania

                Originally posted by jjne View Post
                Competent ESR meters can be bought for less than the price of a decent soldering iron.
                ^^^ I second this, even though I don't have a proper ESR meter yet. I've gone looking around and found good/decent ones for a decent price.

                Heck, if you repair lots of stuff, even spending $100 on a good ESR meter is well worth it!

                Originally posted by TechGeek View Post
                well couldn't some engineers make a normal low ESR poly formula above 5000uF? Or is that way too impractical?
                I'm not a capacitor engineer, but I suspect that there might be issues related to internal temperature, ESR and inductance with large value polys. With a fat capacitor, the heat can build up in the middle, where it is sort of thermally insulated from the rest of the can by the outer windings.

                2.5milliohms ESR is not much resistance (but for high currents, it still matters!).
                A solid core 22AWG wire, about 5cm long, is close to 2.5milliohms.
                (I think ... lol)

                -Ben
                Muh-soggy-knee

                Comment


                  #9
                  Re: ESR Mania

                  Originally posted by jjne View Post
                  "Foreign" manufacturers?

                  Name me one manufacturer of monitors (or pretty much anything) from the USA.

                  Why are you using foreign Panasonic capacitors by the way? No attention to detail.

                  Competent ESR meters can be bought for less than the price of a decent soldering iron.
                  I don't think anyone can name a capacitor manufactured in Europe or North America since the end of the tube era unless the Russians are making their own over in Moscow. You see, household wages have gotten so high with both men & women in the job market that low wage foreign competition from Asia has taken over. As for using Panasonic capacitors, the Japanese have a reputation for having quality control vs. poor or nonexistent in China. I've just noticed AliExpress has the Maste MS5308 for those seeking an inexpensive LCR/ESR meter.
                  Last edited by Mint Waxed; 09-30-2016, 07:30 AM.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Re: ESR Mania

                    Originally posted by ben7 View Post
                    ^^^ I second this, even though I don't have a proper ESR meter yet. I've gone looking around and found good/decent ones for a decent price.

                    Heck, if you repair lots of stuff, even spending $100 on a good ESR meter is well worth it!


                    I'm not a capacitor engineer, but I suspect that there might be issues related to internal temperature, ESR and inductance with large value polys. With a fat capacitor, the heat can build up in the middle, where it is sort of thermally insulated from the rest of the can by the outer windings.

                    2.5milliohms ESR is not much resistance (but for high currents, it still matters!).
                    A solid core 22AWG wire, about 5cm long, is close to 2.5milliohms.
                    (I think ... lol)

                    -Ben
                    Your opinion well taken. Here at the shop which has been in operation for the past 45 years, we stock the parts cabinets with items known to come from quality sources. That way, you don't have to dig in the junk box and test some used, old, dehydrated, or ONS part that might be twenty years old. I'd rather put my money into fresh stock than mickey mouse with an ESR meter. For applications that genuinely require low ESR units, the Panasonic FR series as opposed to NHG can easily be obtained.
                    Last edited by Mint Waxed; 09-30-2016, 07:18 AM.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Re: ESR Mania

                      Originally posted by Mint Waxed View Post
                      I don't think anyone can name a capacitor manufactured in Europe or North America since the end of the tube era unless the Russians are making their own over in Moscow. You see, household wages have gotten so high with both men & women in the job market that low wage foreign competition from Asia has taken over. As for using Panasonic capacitors, the Japanese have a reputation for having quality control vs. poor or nonexistent in China. I've just noticed AliExpress has the Maste MS5308 for those seeking an inexpensive LCR/ESR meter.
                      But Panasonic are foreign (unless you're Japanese). So I don't understand your point about foreign manufacturers.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Re: ESR Mania

                        no, panasonic make most caps in malaysia!!

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Re: ESR Mania

                          !?
                          Don't buy those $10 PSU "specials". They fail, and they have taken whole computers with them.

                          My computer doubles as a space heater.

                          Permanently Retired Systems:
                          RIP Advantech UNO-3072LA (2008-2021) - Decommissioned and taken out of service permanently due to lack of software support for it. Not very likely to ever be recommissioned again.
                          Asus Q550LF (Old main laptop, 2014-2022) - Decommissioned and stripped due to a myriad of problems, the main battery bloating being the final nail in the coffin.


                          Kooky and Kool Systems
                          - 1996 Power Macintosh 7200/120 + PC Compatibility Card - Under Restoration
                          - 1993 Gateway 2000 80486DX/50 - Fully Operational/WIP
                          - 2004 Athlon 64 Retro Gaming System - Indefinitely Parked
                          - Main Workstation - Fully operational!

                          sigpic

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Re: ESR Mania

                            You can get lots of those garage-made LCR testers, clones of that german open-source design. Good for basic use but hardly ideal.

                            If you want proper ESR meter with warranty and support, I can supply ya with ESR Micro v4.0si. Just getting another batch on monday or so. No problem shipping to US, or a colleague of mine can take them with him to Fermilab from time to time and ship using local mail.
                            Last edited by Behemot; 10-01-2016, 02:21 AM.
                            Less jewellery, more gold into electrotech industry! Half of the computer problems is caused by bad contacts

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                            Comment


                              #15
                              Re: ESR Mania

                              Originally posted by jjne View Post
                              But Panasonic are foreign (unless you're Japanese). So I don't understand your point about foreign manufacturers.
                              You are right. Foreign or domestic, the main issue would be quality control. With the huge disparity of wages and standards of living around the world, many manufacturers have turned to cheap labor markets hoping their brand name will make it all transparent.

                              Comment


                                #16
                                Re: ESR Mania

                                Many modern server PSUs use polymer caps. And since modern lytics are much lower ESR than the UCC RX & RZ and Nichicon PA & PB series low ESR caps in common use in the early 80s, compensation can accommodate lower and lower ESRs.

                                Desktop PSUs are VERY dense, and cost sensitive. I think those are the current barriers to using polymer caps in desktop PSUs.
                                PeteS in CA

                                Power Supplies should be boring: No loud noises, no bright flashes, and no bad smells.
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                                To kill personal responsibility, initiative or success, punish it by taxing it. To encourage irresponsibility, improvidence, dependence and failure, reward it by subsidizing it.
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