Suggestions on how to CAT6, CAT3 and RG6

[keeney123]

Re: Suggestions on how to CAT6, CAT3 and RG6

Damn it all, the fireblock isn't good either. It's just designed to prevent airflow but isn't actually fire resistant or anything. For that, the all power Google recommends some product by 3M. Looks like we're purchasing the 90 degree elbows and the conduit. Thanks for the help guys!

So the fireblock is used to cut down air flow which will slow the fire down not prevent spread of fire. To do that you would need brick in all the walls and ceiling and floor in every room. Make sure you have proper smoke alarms in every room, as Stj mentioned a fire extinguishers on each floor, a planned route of escape. Protect the things that matter, Human Life. Lastly make sure you house insurance will cover fire.

[delaware74b]

Re: Suggestions on how to CAT6, CAT3 and RG6

Spork - in post #13 where you show the Romex cable in the return. It was a common practice until the late 90's where the building codes were changed to stop that practice. Although it was perfectly legal until then, that installation looks newer. The white plastic staples is the giveaway.

ENT (electrical nonmetallic tubing), AKA smurf-tube, comes in bright blue or gray, depending on the manufacturer. Neither is plenum-rated. EMT is the way. Bending 1/2- or 3/4" EMT is pretty easy. You have to remember there is a deduction for your bends, regardless if they're a full 90 or just a 45. There are free apps for a smartphone that even I use for running EMT. As far as the fire sealant is concerned, I just passed an inspection using the foam-type sealant for all my vertical penetrations.

[Spork Schivago]

Re: Suggestions on how to CAT6, CAT3 and RG6

So the fireblock is used to cut down air flow which will slow the fire down not prevent spread of fire. To do that you would need brick in all the walls and ceiling and floor in every room. Make sure you have proper smoke alarms in every room, as Stj mentioned a fire extinguishers on each floor, a planned route of escape. Protect the things that matter, Human Life. Lastly make sure you house insurance will cover fire.

Gotcha. Will do. Yeah, I should have read the label on the fireblock stuff. I just assumed it was to fireproof stuff, not stop the flow of air. However, there are products it seems, made by 3M that will do what I want. From reading delaware74b's post, I'm wondering if just coating the cables in the cold air return would be acceptable...

[Spork Schivago]

Re: Suggestions on how to CAT6, CAT3 and RG6

Spork - in post #13 where you show the Romex cable in the return. It was a common practice until the late 90's where the building codes were changed to stop that practice. Although it was perfectly legal until then, that installation looks newer. The white plastic staples is the giveaway.
....

Thanks for the response. The wire was ran before that area was a cold air return, so it would make sense that they'd use the Romex cable. When they ran it, it was just between two floor joist, not a return.

If it's not allowed now, how do I fix it? Can I just use that 3M spray to coat the cables, like I was talking about doing when I responded to Keeney123?

It'd be a lot easier to just coat the cables than pull them all back out and run that EMT. The electrical ones, they will be extremely hard, because I don't see any junction box or anything. I think walls will have to come down or something. That wouldn't be good at all. We are not ready to tear up the floor in the hallway and we definitely don't want to take down drywall. The previous owners replaced just about all the lathe and plaster with drywall before they sold us the house. The closets still have some and some of the ceiling still has some and that will have to go, but much later in time.

Thanks.

[delaware74b]

Re: Suggestions on how to CAT6, CAT3 and RG6

The proper fix is to pull the cables back and sleeve them in the EMT. Unfortunately, This should have been done when the wall cavity was changed into the return. Can you access these cables from both sides of the return duct? If so, I may have an easy fix for you.

[Spork Schivago]

Re: Suggestions on how to CAT6, CAT3 and RG6

The proper fix is to pull the cables back and sleeve them in the EMT. Unfortunately, This should have been done when the wall cavity was changed into the return. Can you access these cables from both sides of the return duct? If so, I may have an easy fix for you.

I can access the low voltage wires I ran easily delaware74b from both sides of the return duct, but for the electrical wires, no, we don't even know where they go. We cannot see, they go through some whole that was drilled (and they probably pulled them through using one of those fish lines that we recently purchased). They did tear down all the lathe and plaster for the walls recently. Maybe they ran them then?

What was your idea for the easy fix for us?

[stj]

Re: Suggestions on how to CAT6, CAT3 and RG6

if i had to wire a house again, i would use special trunking designed to look like skirting board for the low voltage stuff.

[ratdude747]

Re: Suggestions on how to CAT6, CAT3 and RG6

To answer the original question:

The Cat6 and RG6 can be paired. I wouldn't sweat it. Cat 3 may be a different story especially if you're on a true land line phone (not VOIP/cable) which during a call will run at 90V. I've paired Cat5 and flat phone cord before but that was not knowing what I was doing. Works fine but the stretch in question was somewhat low usage as was the landline (Cable VOIP).

At work we have a few assembly lines with 120V and Ethernet in the same channel of wire trough. That's because the Cat5e (or Cat6?) we're using is rated for such (some Cat5 is only 50V or so rated). Also it's for PLC/Robot connections, and said cables are often shielded (Allen Bradley uses shielded Cat5e for a lot of their applications at least).

Food for thought/further research: Originally Cat5 (10-BaseT) was to use the center pairs as cat3 (making the plugs 100% universal), but due to interference fears that never saw much use (which is also why Cat 5 didn't have a twist spec for the center pair and why Cat5e became a thing).

[Spork Schivago]

Re: Suggestions on how to CAT6, CAT3 and RG6

To answer the original question:

The Cat6 and RG6 can be paired. I wouldn't sweat it. Cat 3 may be a different story especially if you're on a true land line phone (not VOIP/cable) which during a call will run at 90V. I've paired Cat5 and flat phone cord before but that was not knowing what I was doing. Works fine but the stretch in question was somewhat low usage as was the landline (Cable VOIP).

At work we have a few assembly lines with 120V and Ethernet in the same channel of wire trough. That's because the Cat5e (or Cat6?) we're using is rated for such (some Cat5 is only 50V or so rated). Also it's for PLC/Robot connections, and said cables are often shielded (Allen Bradley uses shielded Cat5e for a lot of their applications at least).

Food for thought/further research: Originally Cat5 (10-BaseT) was to use the center pairs as cat3 (making the plugs 100% universal), but due to interference fears that never saw much use (which is also why Cat 5 didn't have a twist spec for the center pair and why Cat5e became a thing).

I should have went with the 5e. I thought the cat 3 was better, because it had been so long since I've done this. I didn't realize the modular plug we bought was designed for 5e. I regret that now but am not going to undo all that and spend money on 5e. I'll just purchase 5e for the next room. Hopefully I can find a colour other than blue, so we can more easily tell the different between the phone lines and the ethernet. We use cable, but the idea was if we ever decided to sell, people would have gigabit ethernet in each room. I should have also did what Stj suggested and went for the better than RG6U quad shielding cable. I don't remember what he called it, but I don't think the RG6U is usable with satellite. It can handle 5MHz to 3GHz. We've never had satellite. But I think the satellite cabling can be used with cable, just not the other way around. The phone we have, we just plug the base into an outlet and then we just plug the handsets into an electrical outlet. We don't have the handsets plugged into any telephone jacks. It's a cool design. Just need to have one phone cord. It's also got blue tooth so we can pair it to cell, incase the cable modem dies out (which seems to happen a lot in this house...hopefully the new RG6U will fix that).

Do people still use landlines from places like Verizon or does everyone just have cable modems / cell phones now? We added the telephone lines in case someone wanted Verizon. But the way we're doing it, we should be able to plug the cable modem into our telecommunications box and then eventually, when every room is done, any jack will provide a valid phone line. I think for the other rooms, we'll do the 5e. I'll probably look for some orange type 5e or something. Just gonna have to drill better holes. Maybe I should get the shielded stuff. I've never played with it before, is it harder to run?

[Spork Schivago]

Re: Suggestions on how to CAT6, CAT3 and RG6

...Cat 3 may be a different story especially if you're on a true land line phone (not VOIP/cable) which during a call will run at 90V....

Are you sure about this? 90V seems a bit high for telephone. I thought when the phone rang, the telco sent around 40 ~ 50VDC and then afterwards, the voltage was low, around a couple volts. I seem to remember powering an LED using the telephone wires when I was in high school, just trying to have a light source when the power went out but the phones still worked (back in the days of rotary telephones). The LED wasn't very bright at all, but when the phone rang, it fried the LED. Maybe it wasn't an LED but some other type of light....I remember wiring up a telephone line and someone called and that thing shocked me. I wouldn't think DC would shock like that.

[stj]

Re: Suggestions on how to CAT6, CAT3 and RG6

90vac is the power to ring the bell - it drops to about 45v during the call.

[Spork Schivago]

Re: Suggestions on how to CAT6, CAT3 and RG6

90vac is the power to ring the bell - it drops to about 45v during the call.

Is that in the UK? I could have sworn the 45v was to ring the bell and then it dropped to keep the call going. I might be wrong. We live in the US, so maybe things are different? I'll check tomorrow, I gotta get up early though so I'm going to bed. Night.

[ratdude747]

Re: Suggestions on how to CAT6, CAT3 and RG6

Is that in the UK? I could have sworn the 45v was to ring the bell and then it dropped to keep the call going. I might be wrong. We live in the US, so maybe things are different? I'll check tomorrow, I gotta get up early though so I'm going to bed. Night.

Like STJ said, 90V ring, 45Vish during calls.

FWIW, 48 is max for POE. But that is supply voltage, not AC bursts.

[keeney123]

Re: Suggestions on how to CAT6, CAT3 and RG6

Is that in the UK? I could have sworn the 45v was to ring the bell and then it dropped to keep the call going. I might be wrong. We live in the US, so maybe things are different? I'll check tomorrow, I gotta get up early though so I'm going to bed. Night.

That is 45 volts DC for on hook. The ring voltage can be as high as 110 AC. Off hook is around 20 volts DC. Usually with floating ground. The voltage drop from 45v to 20 volts lets the Telephone Company know you pick up the phone. The audio rides on top of the 20 volts DC. The ring voltage use to always be AC but now it is dependent on the company as they may put out a digital ring. Therefore some phone will not ring with some companies.

[Spork Schivago]

Re: Suggestions on how to CAT6, CAT3 and RG6

Like STJ said, 90V ring, 45Vish during calls.

FWIW, 48 is max for POE. But that is supply voltage, not AC bursts.

Thank you guys for correcting me. I could have sworn it was 45V during the ringing but I must have been wrong. Perhaps I was trying to light one of those old incandescent light bulbs, the ones that run off AC. I remember it only got bright enough when the phone rang.

For PoE, are you referring to Power Over Ethernet? Just curious. Thanks!

[Spork Schivago]

Re: Suggestions on how to CAT6, CAT3 and RG6

That is 45 volts DC for on hook. The ring voltage can be as high as 110 AC. Off hook is around 20 volts DC. Usually with floating ground. The voltage drop from 45v to 20 volts lets the Telephone Company know you pick up the phone. The audio rides on top of the 20 volts DC. The ring voltage use to always be AC but now it is dependent on the company as they may put out a digital ring. Therefore some phone will not ring with some companies.

I remember trying to build a box once when I was in high school. I can't remember the colour, but I'm thinking black for some reason. If I remember correctly, the box was supposed to keep the line voltage high when I picked up the telephone. There was definitely some interference but that was expected. It was back when we had these things called payphones! I'm sure you remember but some of the younger generation might not!

Anyway, I never got it to work correctly. The idea was when the phone rang, turn on the device and then pick up. Whoever was calling from the payphone would get their money back afterwards because the payphone would think it just kept ringing and ringing and ringing. Too bad it didn't work. We tried lots of things back then, like the 2600 Hz thing (aka, the Capt'n Crunch whistles), but the telephone company was too updated for things like that to work I guess.

[keeney123]

Re: Suggestions on how to CAT6, CAT3 and RG6

I remember trying to build a box once when I was in high school. I can't remember the colour, but I'm thinking black for some reason. If I remember correctly, the box was supposed to keep the line voltage high when I picked up the telephone. There was definitely some interference but that was expected. It was back when we had these things called payphones! I'm sure you remember but some of the younger generation might not!

Anyway, I never got it to work correctly. The idea was when the phone rang, turn on the device and then pick up. Whoever was calling from the payphone would get their money back afterwards because the payphone would think it just kept ringing and ringing and ringing. Too bad it didn't work. We tried lots of things back then, like the 2600 Hz thing (aka, the Capt'n Crunch whistles), but the telephone company was too updated for things like that to work I guess.

Yea, the thing is if the line does not go to 20 volts the phone company will not connect you. I work as a senior technician for Teltronics a telecommunication manufacturer for about 3 years. We work on interconnect boards, hotel/motel charge boards and A. C. Nielsen program rating boards.

[delaware74b]

Re: Suggestions on how to CAT6, CAT3 and RG6

If your wiring was accessible from both sides of the return, I was thinking to cut it in the center of the return. Run EMT through the return after pulling the romex out. Set a junction box on each end of the EMT. Pull THHN type wire through the EMT and splice it to the ends of the original romex. The point is the junction boxes must remain accessible after you're done. The boxes cannot be behind any walls, etc. You can hide them inside a cabinet as long as the cover can be removed and you can work on the connections.

[keeney123]

Re: Suggestions on how to CAT6, CAT3 and RG6

If your wiring was accessible from both sides of the return, I was thinking to cut it in the center of the return. Run EMT through the return after pulling the romex out. Set a junction box on each end of the EMT. Pull THHN type wire through the EMT and splice it to the ends of the original romex. The point is the junction boxes must remain accessible after you're done. The boxes cannot be behind any walls, etc. You can hide them inside a cabinet as long as the cover can be removed and you can work on the connections.

THHN about the best wire coating one can get.

[Spork Schivago]

Re: Suggestions on how to CAT6, CAT3 and RG6

Yea, the thing is if the line does not go to 20 volts the phone company will not connect you. I work as a senior technician for Teltronics a telecommunication manufacturer for about 3 years. We work on interconnect boards, hotel/motel charge boards and A. C. Nielsen program rating boards.

Back in the 90's, was it this way? I remember the payphone connected but there was this interference. I can't remember if it was more of a buzz or what, but you could tell something was interfering. It was constant and not changing at all. However, when my friend disconnected from the payphone, he never got his quarter back. He wasted another telling me it didn't work. The green box (I think it was green), didn't work either. We tried using that to get free quarters.

In the end, at the high school, we found a magic number that we could call. There were two numbers written down on the payphone there, handwritten, and we discovered if we called both of them, we'd get a dial tone and could make free calls. That worked for a long time, a good 3 or 4 years, then it just stopped working one day. At that point though, we figured out the codes for the school's phone system (I think it was some sort of PBX). We could make outgoing calls from any phone (some where just 9 then the number, others were a four digit number, 9 and then the number). We could get on the PA system. On graduation, we played over the PA system, School's Out, by Alice Cooper. We used a cassette tape that had the tones recorded on it to get onto the PA and then the song. We didn't play it for more than 30 seconds or though. We just taped it to the telephone, hit play, walked away, it played after a bit. The teachers suspected it was us but could never prove it. It was fun.

We also had all the information on the students. A program called SView or Student View. It gave the students class schedule, their contact information, grades, etc. One guy found out we had the codes to get on the phone and told a teacher who told the principal. He called me in and was like I got power too, give me one of your friends names. I gave him one, he started SView and pulled up all his records and said see, I can tell you, right now, Andrew is in Lunch. I felt like saying, yeah, we can do that too. But I didn't. He said he had to pay someone to come in and change the codes for the phone system. I told him we could do that for him and that really got him upset. I ended up getting a day in detention. I didn't roll over on any of my friends though and just pretended I was the only one with the code. It wasn't hard to figure out the new code after the old one was changed. We had lots of fun back then.