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Old 01-04-2020, 01:02 PM   #261
dicky96
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Default Re: Soldering station thoughts and guidelines

@Danny
No the microscope came with one set of eyepieces which are 10/20x

I am pretty certain the following info is correct, unless I misunderstood it

With the 10/20x eyepieces and the protective glass (effectively 1x Objective) fitted to the bottom of the microscope you have 7x-45x magnification (zoom)

With the 10/20x and the 0.5x Barlow Objective lens you get 3.5x-22.5x magnification

With the 10/20x and the 2.0x Barlow Objective you get 14x-90x magnification


I have also seen the same microscope heads include 20/10x eyepieces and using 20/10x with the 2x Barlow Objective you get 28x-180x magnification. So with all options included you get a total 3.5x-180x range

Quite why the eyepieces are called 10/20x and 20/10x (which apparently gives twice the magnification) I honestly don't know

From my observations so far the best configuration for soldering is 3.5x-22.5x as I seem to find myself using the lowest available magnification - and in retrospect I am considering adding a 0.3x Barlow objective which would presumably give 2.33x-15x which could be even better and I would expect also increases the working distance.

The working distance is about 10cm with the 0.5x Barlow but I will do some video showing the working distance while soldering and upload it when I get chance. With 0.3x Barlow I suspect that is more like 15cm. Hopefully someone else can advise on that.

I also think I have solved with the problem wearing glasses. I am longsighted and also astigmatic. My close up vision is very bad.

It turns out (not suprisingly) that microscope manufacturers know all about this problem

http://zeiss-campus.magnet.fsu.edu/a...rgonomics.html

and produce special high eyepoint eyepieces to resolve it

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Pair-Ster....c100677.m4598

Look at the symbol on the eyepiece - it says 10/20x and has a eyeglasses icon!

Also as a bonus with high eyepoint eyepieces you apparently get an even wider field of view!!

I've asked my vendor if he can supply these for me so I know 100% they will fit the microscope - otherwise I should have no problem getting them elsewhere as they seem fairly standard items and they are not stupidly expensive either

If i knew all this before I would have asked for the microscope to be supplied with just the 0.5x Barlow (or maybe even 0.3x), the 0.5x tube and the high eyepoint eyepieces and probably saved a few euros

Live and learn.... but I am more than happy to pass my findings on

Last edited by dicky96; 01-04-2020 at 01:19 PM..
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Old 01-04-2020, 01:32 PM   #262
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Default Re: Soldering station thoughts and guidelines

I think I solved your HUD as well

Use the high eyepoint eyepieces

There are such things as Smart Glasses available that can do the HUD. They should be available with prescription lenses
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5dsVwXzOIjk
https://www.bynorth.com/

And the glasses are BlueTooth so add a BlueTooth multimeter (there are many available) such as
https://www.amazon.co.uk/OWON-Multim...a-569162116070

And you may be getting somewhere

Last edited by dicky96; 01-04-2020 at 01:39 PM..
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Old 01-04-2020, 01:55 PM   #263
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Default Re: Soldering station thoughts and guidelines

Thanks for the info.

I think someone could try to integrate the HUD in the eyepieces rather than the scope body itself. Something like a miniature teleprompter which uses a semi-reflective mirror placed between the eye and the screen, with the eyepiece below, to view both the display and the eyepiece image in one place. It would still require some precision machining I imagine, so I'm not sure who would undertake such project outside a factory...
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Old 01-04-2020, 04:46 PM   #264
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Default Re: Soldering station thoughts and guidelines

It's an intreaging idea Danny. Possibly some of the folks on eevblog forum would have a better idea how to implement this?

Seeing how that is mostly an electronics engineering forum and we mostly fix stuff.
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Old 01-05-2020, 03:34 AM   #265
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Default Re: Soldering station thoughts and guidelines

Hmmm sometimes I do my best thinking at night without realising I was thinking about it until the morning when I wake up with the answer

In this case of this HUD device I think maybe you are going about this completely the wrong way

It could be easier to implement this if you used a small laser fitted to the microscope in the same sort of way the LED ring light does, and use that to project the meter reading directly onto the PCB you are viewing

When I was running mobile disco's I had animation lasers that could project images over long distances across rooms and they were plenty bright enough, so a low powered one should work well enough to project an image onto a PCB 10cm away

They use a laser source and 2 tiny mirrors on voice coil motors to create the scan/image.

Because the PCB under test is usually relatively flat, that system should work well and the parts to build it should be readily available. Using RGB lasers (or maybe just a cheapo red green) It should not be a problem to select the colour of the projected image and the intensity of the LED ring light to get a good image on any type of PCB and such a device would simply clip onto the microscope, it requires no modification to lenses and requires no focusing. It should be easy to swivel the laser to move the projected image to appear in whatever part of the view you prefer.

Projecting a graticule and oscilloscope type waveform should be simple to implement as well. Depending how accurate you need to take your readings, this could be good enough for voltage measurements if you are only really interested in logic high/low or the presence of a voltage supply rail - just like I often use my analog oscilloscope as a basic 'volt meter' when fault finding.

Thoughts?


Rich

Last edited by dicky96; 01-05-2020 at 03:42 AM..
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Old 01-05-2020, 04:30 AM   #266
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Default Re: Soldering station thoughts and guidelines

I actually did come across an idea like that, since I'm obviously not the first guy to dream of that. The issue I see, though I could be wrong, is that the projection would have to be.....tiny....microscopic in fact if you think about it. Also, it would drift out of focus as you adjust the microscope, unless you adjust IT as well somehow. It would be simpler to implement indeed.

I was also thinking of somehow shooting it down the trinocular port, though I'm not sure if it works "backwards", like if you shine a laser pointer down through it for instance - does it come out of the oculars as well, or does it tend to go straight out the main lens ?
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Old 01-05-2020, 05:40 AM   #267
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Default Re: Soldering station thoughts and guidelines

Yes the laser image would have to be fairly small but I wouldn't say tiny. Depending on the magnification you were using but I would suggest while fault finding you are probably going to be using 3.5x and you have quite a good field of view at that magnification

Laser projection does not appear to need any sort of focus. At least not on the lasers I worked with. You could project the text image 30 cm or across a room and still see it clearly enough to read it. Possibly a lens would help with the projected image size?

Actually this sounds like a good kickstarter type project for someone. Have you discussed it over on eevblog?
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Old 01-05-2020, 05:50 AM   #268
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Default Re: Soldering station thoughts and guidelines

No, I haven't, especially since it's something that just popped into my brain at semi-random. I'm not a member of EEv anyway, plus I don't have a microscope anyway, since I would be willing to take it apart (as much as possible, of course - to the point where I'd fear I'd no longer be able to put it back) to try and figure out a way to do this collaboratively. I'd still stick with the OLED idea, but again, I'm not sure how a microscope works inside and where I'd be able to fit the thing without completely destroying it...
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Old 01-05-2020, 05:54 AM   #269
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Default Re: Soldering station thoughts and guidelines

Laser light, lenses and eyes all very close to each other, what could go wrong ?
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Old 01-05-2020, 06:00 AM   #270
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Default Re: Soldering station thoughts and guidelines

Quote:
Originally Posted by diif View Post
Laser light, lenses and eyes all very close to each other, what could go wrong ?
Yes, I imagine that would be another issue in the long run - you can't fire a laser straight into someone's eye However, it was suggested pointing the laser at the stage, not up through the optical path, so the idea was alright. A simple screen has the upper-hand in this regard, but it's a lot more difficult to implement since it'd have to be pretty bright, since it doesn't actually "project" anything, so it would require lenses and mirrors and junk to place it in the optical path somehow...
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Old 01-05-2020, 07:11 AM   #271
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Default Re: Soldering station thoughts and guidelines

Quote:
Originally Posted by diif View Post
Laser light, lenses and eyes all very close to each other, what could go wrong ?
What could go wrong at any POS or self service checkout these days? Can't be safety hazard as they are ubiquitous
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Old 01-05-2020, 08:33 AM   #272
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Default Re: Soldering station thoughts and guidelines

Not it's not direct into the eye, until it reflects off that certain part of the item being inspected and it might as well be direct. Maybe the power is not sufficient for damage, however it it being amplified and direct into the eye.

Once you've used a stereo microscope with some decent fine probes and appreciate the control and precision you have in being able to hold them where you want, the need for a HUD diminishes greatly.
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Old 01-05-2020, 08:41 AM   #273
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Default Re: Soldering station thoughts and guidelines

Fair enough diif, but I still like the idea of a built in display in a microscope now danny mentioned it.

Did you note my link to those eyepieces I found that are made for folks who wear glasses? I am going to get some of those for sure

Anyone have any objections if i start a thread over on eevblog regards the microscope HUD idea and see what those guys come up with?

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Old 01-05-2020, 09:22 AM   #274
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Default Re: Soldering station thoughts and guidelines

Quote:
Originally Posted by dicky96 View Post
What could go wrong at any POS or self service checkout these days? Can't be safety hazard as they are ubiquitous
Quite a lot it seems, half of them always seem to be broken down. Perhaps turned off after users reported not being able to see properly after using them ? Perhaps there is a fine line between reliable scanning and blindness, they are just keeping it a secret ?

Maybe my fear is unfounded, I'm talking arse and because of the optics/power there is no chance of injury. To me it just seems the potential for it, is far greater when you're intentionally magnifying and directly looking at it.

Ive seen those lenses on ebay with the glasses and wondered what they were for, definitely worth purchasing.

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Old 01-05-2020, 11:14 AM   #275
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Thumbs up Re: Soldering station thoughts and guidelines

Quote:
Originally Posted by dicky96 View Post
Anyone have any objections if i start a thread over on eevblog regards the microscope HUD idea and see what those guys come up with?
I like that !

Yes, probably with practice I can learn to keep my probes steady enough even when looking away from the microscope to look at the meter, but I still think this would be pretty handy, even if not indispensable, as you pointed out.
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Old 01-05-2020, 11:42 AM   #276
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Default Re: Soldering station thoughts and guidelines

Quote:
Originally Posted by diif View Post

Ive seen those lenses on ebay with the glasses and wondered what they were for, definitely worth purchasing.
The vendor who sold me the microscope replied this morning, says he is checking with the factory if they have some. If he has them and they are a similar price to elsewhere I will order some along with that 0.5x tube I need for the camera.

If not I think i just need to know if the microscope uses 30mm or 30.5mm eyepieces and I will get some off ebay, so I asked that too.

Quite why there needs to be two standards with only 0.5mm difference is beyond me

I'll post back with my findings as soon as they arrive and I have chance to try them.

@danny
I'm a bit surprised you are not a member, because Eevblog is the largest electronics test equipment and modification on the net, in the same way that badcaps is the biggest repair forum (AFAIK). So I will go post there. I'm sure I will get some interesting responses.

I trust I am not breaking forum rules discussing other 'competitors' forums here, certainly on eevblog they allow discussion of badcaps forum so hopefully it is a reciprocal thing.

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Old 01-05-2020, 11:45 AM   #277
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Default Re: Soldering station thoughts and guidelines

Agreed, I do think it would be a handy thing to have and something I had thought about in the past.
Not having to move my eyes at all instead of having to look upwards and refocus would be nice.
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Old 01-05-2020, 12:05 PM   #278
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Thumbs up Re: Soldering station thoughts and guidelines

Looking at some pics of your particular microscope on Ali, as much as I can make out to get an idea of how it's put together and how one might go about hacking it. I see the white boxes that house the eyepieces where the meet the scope body have a philips screw on the outer edge. I assume this is what removes those parts and gains access to....something. The key to inserting something in the optical path could lie there.

How do the eyepieces install on it ? Do they thread onto something or do they just drop in place ? I don't see any threads on them, so I assume they're like two pieces of pipe dropping down into two larger pieces of pipe...trying to work out how it works

Speaking of eyepieces, I just noticed something: don't know if you've seen it yourself, but if you scroll down the page on Ali (this one), there's a photo which shows the eyepieces WITH the little glasses symbol ironically enough That part is a separate topic to our HUD here, but just though I'd point it out
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Old 01-05-2020, 12:07 PM   #279
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Default Re: Soldering station thoughts and guidelines

OK guys the topic is on eevblog. I think that just about covers the discussion so far

Danny you should register there and save me a bit of hassle lol, or otherwise I can post back any interesting answers. Diif and others.. I guess you are already registered there?


eevblog post.
------------
Hi guys
This post follows on from a discussion I am having with several members on badcaps forum. So apologies to anyone who also follows that forum. In the end we thought the folks here may have a better idea if our idea is do-able.

We were discussing the practicality and desirability of having a HUD type display built into a binocular or trinocular microscope so that it would be possible to view meter readings and possibly oscilloscope wave forms while diagnosing faults on DUT such as laptop & desktop motherboards or mobile devices, without having to move your eyes from your carefully placed test probes.

We discussed several ideas from wearing smart glasses or some other sort of HUD when using the microscope, to having an OLED or other display integrated into the microscope or a modified eyepiece, or having a scanning laser or other device clipped on the microscope to project a small image directly onto the DUT itself (given that PCBs are relatively flat and reasonably reflective)

We briefly chatted about using blue tooth to get the data from a compatible multimeter onto the microscope display.

That's about as far as we got with it. But we are thinking you eevbloggers could get further

So the questions are...

Is it a desirable/workable feature?
Is it feasible to do this, as an 'affordable plug in add-on' or upgrade to an existing stereo microscope such as the common Amscope and similar models that are all over aliexpress?
Has it already been done?
How would it best be implemented?
Is this a good kickstarter type project for someone?


Cheers
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Old 01-05-2020, 12:09 PM   #280
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Default Re: Soldering station thoughts and guidelines

Can you link to it ? I'll probably hop on EEV myself now that you mention it. Why not...
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