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Old 03-10-2015, 12:36 PM   #1
ohren
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Default Help an untrained ear to identify this sound? (unplugging a Hiper Type-R 480W)

I had an old Hiper Type-R 480W that had failed years ago. It had three visibly bad caps that I replaced (2x 1000F 10 V, 2200F 10 V), but that didn't do the trick. I don't remember if it made any sound when it first failed, but now when I unplug it it whines.

Internal fan doesn't move, and neither does a 4 pin peripheral fan when shorting green and black wire on the 24 pin.

Attached is an m4a (where you'll hear me plug it in and unplug it first).

PSU.m4a.zip

Oh, and my background... I'm not very experienced with troubleshooting electronics, I just think it would be fun to learn. I've mostly repaired/resoldered simple stuff before, like broken mice and remote controls.
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Old 03-10-2015, 02:14 PM   #2
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Default Re: Help an untrained ear to identify this sound? (unplugging a Hiper Type-R 480W)

Recap the entire 5VSB circuit. This unit uses teapo SC and teapo SEK in that area, the little caps usually fail as well as they get older, and those are good psu's but run warm, which is bad for teapo caps.
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Old 03-11-2015, 12:23 AM   #3
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Default Re: Help an untrained ear to identify this sound? (unplugging a Hiper Type-R 480W)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pentium4 View Post
Recap the entire 5VSB circuit. This unit uses teapo SC and teapo SEK in that area, the little caps usually fail as well as they get older, and those are good psu's but run warm, which is bad for teapo caps.
Sounds good to me.

We don't just have a descending squeal as the input caps discharge; it's doing the same thing at full line voltage- ultrasonically, so we cannot hear it. It slows down as the caps discharge...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ohren
I had an old Hiper Type-R 480W that had failed years ago. It had three visibly bad caps that I replaced (2x 1000F 10 V, 2200F 10 V), but that didn't do the trick. I don't remember if it made any sound when it first failed, but now when I unplug it it whines.
Were those for the +5VSB output, before and after a PI choke? What voltage do you read between the purple wire and PS chassis? It's probably something like 2-2.8V, and bouncing around.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ohren
Internal fan doesn't move, and neither does a 4 pin peripheral fan when shorting green and black wire on the 24 pin.
That's expected. The main PWM cannot even begin to come up until it has its own power. That can be either 5VSB, or an aux voltage, like a dedicated 12-18V supply- this depends on the particular unit. There can be yet another auxilliary voltage, used by the primary of the switching circuit itself. Sometimes, as many as four windings on that little transformer.

Either way, you'll get nothing til whatever feeds the standby transformer is working properly.

If I had to guess, it was either shut off or lost AC power, and hasn't come back on since. Get rid of those small caps and it should work again.
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Old 03-11-2015, 01:38 AM   #4
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Default Re: Help an untrained ear to identify this sound? (unplugging a Hiper Type-R 480W)

A whine can also indicate a short too. Do you get any 5vSB voltage at all?
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Old 03-11-2015, 06:20 AM   #5
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Default Re: Help an untrained ear to identify this sound? (unplugging a Hiper Type-R 480W)

Thanks you three for the replies

Quote:
Originally Posted by kaboom View Post
What voltage do you read between the purple wire and PS chassis? It's probably something like 2-2.8V, and bouncing around.
It's no more than 6-12 mV, and then around 90-100 mV after waiting a minute or so...

Quote:
Originally Posted by kaboom View Post
Were those for the +5VSB output, before and after a PI choke?
I'll have to read up a bit before answering that, and (probably) resort to a picture. Identifying the 5VSB circuit isn't something I can do easily just yet

Last edited by ohren; 03-11-2015 at 06:24 AM..
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Old 03-11-2015, 07:21 AM   #6
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Default Re: Help an untrained ear to identify this sound? (unplugging a Hiper Type-R 480W)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ohren View Post
Thanks you three for the replies


It's no more than 6-12 mV, and then around 90-100 mV after waiting a minute or so...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Agent24 View Post
A whine can also indicate a short too. Do you get any 5vSB voltage at all?
I'd check the 5VSB rectifier for shorts. There may be another rectifier for the aux supply- maybe a UF4004, near the bigger one for 5VSB. And there could be yet another for a tertiary winding.

Here's an older standby supply with the four-winding transformer:
http://www.pavouk.org/hw/en_mxr-250p.html

Regulation is achieved by attempting to keep that tertiary's (3-4) rectified voltage the same. The turns-ratio determined the two secondary voltages with those. But that critical cap, C1, often goes bad, reducing the "sample" from the tert winding. Which results in the supply kicking harder to maintain a given voltage- by this point, the actual tert voltage (and others too) became much too high.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ohren View Post
I'll have to read up a bit before answering that, and (probably) resort to a picture. Identifying the 5VSB circuit isn't something I can do easily just yet
That will help. I don't know if there's an IC for your standby or the two-transistor circuit.

Last edited by kaboom; 03-11-2015 at 07:46 AM.. Reason: removed bestec info; they have optos, PS in example does not- two different beasts
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Old 03-14-2018, 08:58 AM   #7
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Default Re: Help an untrained ear to identify this sound? (unplugging a Hiper Type-R 480W)

I had to realize I knew too little last time (didn't want to kill myself), but now I'm picking this up where I left off.

I've read up enough to answer yes, one cap on either side of a choke were replaced, between the transformer and 5VSB. To my understanding that is a pi filter. I tried drawing the circuit, don't know if I got it right.

Also, a glass zener diode parallel to those caps was cracked, possibly due to heat from a heatsink directly above it. When I desoldered it I managed to split it in half. I don't know if it could possibly have been the culprit. It's in the drawing.

I don't really know how to identify the zener so that it can be replaced. The casing read something like this:

?4
35

I'm measuring a 0.4 ohm short across where it used to be I don't know if that's relevant.

I'm measuring the same both ways across what I assume is the rectifier diode for 5VSB. I'm not sure if that's what was asked for.

Appreciate everyone's input.
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Old 03-14-2018, 10:33 AM   #8
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Default Re: Help an untrained ear to identify this sound? (unplugging a Hiper Type-R 480W)

I also realize that some might be offended by the huge time gap. Apologies, life got in the way and then the project got put in storage after I moved.

While I would be happy to blindly "recap entire 5vsb", I would like to start with just troubleshooting and understanding what's actually gone wrong. Acquiring spare parts is somewhat challenging for me so I'd like to take one step at a time, so that even if I don't succeed with the repair it I still learn how to diagnose the problem.
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Old 03-14-2018, 03:21 PM   #9
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Default Re: Help an untrained ear to identify this sound? (unplugging a Hiper Type-R 480W)

If you are measuring 0.4 Ohm both ways across the 5vSB rectifier diode, then it's most likely shorted and most likely the problem. Desolder and check out of circuit.

Zener part number might have been something like 1N*435 or 1N35*4, can you post a photo showing what the ? number you read looks like?

In any case though, I would guess it to be a 5.6v zener. I would see no reason they should use anything higher. ATX spec actually calls for 5% regulation on 5vSB so 5.25v is considered maximum anyway.
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Old 03-14-2018, 08:29 PM   #10
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Default Re: Help an untrained ear to identify this sound? (unplugging a Hiper Type-R 480W)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Agent24 View Post
If you are measuring 0.4 Ohm both ways across the 5vSB rectifier diode, then it's most likely shorted and most likely the problem. Desolder and check out of circuit.
Will do

Quote:
Zener part number might have been something like 1N*435 or 1N35*4, can you post a photo showing what the ? number you read looks like?
I will try, although I think the crack went right through the digit. I probably have to find a better camera, or stare at it for a while longer.

Quote:
In any case though, I would guess it to be a 5.6v zener. I would see no reason they should use anything higher. ATX spec actually calls for 5% regulation on 5vSB so 5.25v is considered maximum anyway.
Ok, thank you! Perhaps there's a chance I can try to replace it later after all with the help of your intuition.
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Old 03-15-2018, 04:32 PM   #11
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Default Re: Help an untrained ear to identify this sound? (unplugging a Hiper Type-R 480W)

It was shorted. This is the first time I've identified a faulty component (with assistance) so I'm pretty happy about this.

Why would this happen? I guess because of heat. If this diode is the root cause, then I suppose the likelihood that it caused something else to break is small. I.e. I should be satisfied with this and order replacement parts, if I can figure out a suitable zener.

Unfortunately it's impossible to read the first character(s) of its code even if I had a microscope. I should have used the word shattered

How critical is the choice of component here? It looks pretty rugged, almost 3 mm diameter. Would maybe one of these do? (they both look the same to me)

https://www.elfa.se/Web/Downloads/_t...85_eng_tds.pdf

https://www.elfa.se/Web/Downloads/85...ie_BZX85_e.pdf

The rectifier was an SB540.
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Old 03-15-2018, 06:32 PM   #12
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Default Re: Help an untrained ear to identify this sound? (unplugging a Hiper Type-R 480W)

The zener is there most likely as a "crowbar" style protection circuit; in case the 5vSB goes faulty with overvoltage, the zener will conduct and short the output (like putting a crowbar across the power connector, hence the name). This would hopefully either shutdown the 5vSB controller, or blow a fuse, thus preventing damage to the motherboard the PSU is connected to.

It may also be to prevent overshoot at power up or power down.

At 3mm diameter, it sounds like at least a 1 watt zener, possibly a little more.
Going by schematics of various other ATX PSUs, a 6.2 or 6.3v zener seems common in that position.

Now I think about it, 5.x volt as I guessed earlier, is probably too low. Zeners will start to turn on before their rated voltage, so a 5.6v zener may start conducting even at normal voltage on the 5vSB rail.


So yes. Get another SB540, and a 1W or higher 6.2/6.3v zener, and you should be back in business!
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Old 03-16-2018, 12:45 PM   #13
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Default Re: Help an untrained ear to identify this sound? (unplugging a Hiper Type-R 480W)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Agent24 View Post
The zener is there most likely as a "crowbar" style protection circuit; in case the 5vSB goes faulty with overvoltage, the zener will conduct and short the output (like putting a crowbar across the power connector, hence the name).
Thanks, saved me a google

I'll try and get my hands on those two and see if it powers up.

I read that the caps go bad when unpowered for a long time so I can't expect to get much value from it, but just getting it to start would be cool. It's been off for eight years
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Old 03-16-2018, 02:05 PM   #14
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Default Re: Help an untrained ear to identify this sound? (unplugging a Hiper Type-R 480W)

They may or may not go bad from age. Only way to know is try it and see.

The ones you replaced will likely still be fine. If others have failed they were likely already on the way out.

It looks like an alright, average PSU if you fix the 5vSB and replace any bad capacitors.
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Old 03-19-2018, 06:09 AM   #15
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Default Re: Help an untrained ear to identify this sound? (unplugging a Hiper Type-R 480W)

If this one will do the job then I'm ready to try:

https://www.electrokit.com/productFile/download/9377

6 V, 5 W

I couldn't find any real advantage with glass package over plastic anyway.
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Old 03-19-2018, 09:36 AM   #16
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Default Re: Help an untrained ear to identify this sound? (unplugging a Hiper Type-R 480W)

Be careful when substituting larger zeners, the high wattage zeners have really thick leads that may not fit through the holes of an existing spot... Just a word of warning...
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Old 03-19-2018, 09:38 AM   #17
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Default Re: Help an untrained ear to identify this sound? (unplugging a Hiper Type-R 480W)

Quote:
Originally Posted by eccerr0r View Post
Be careful when substituting larger zeners, the high wattage zeners have really thick leads that may not fit through the holes of an existing spot... Just a word of warning...
Thanks for the tip, I'll double-check the lead diameters
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Old 06-18-2018, 05:08 AM   #18
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Default Re: Help an untrained ear to identify this sound? (unplugging a Hiper Type-R 480W)

I did the repair, but unfortunately it didn't work. 5vsb is basically jumping around between 0 and 0.3 V now. It was an educational experiment, but I doubt I have the skill to troubleshoot this any further.

Thanks for all the useful advice!
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Old 06-18-2018, 04:32 PM   #19
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Default Re: Help an untrained ear to identify this sound? (unplugging a Hiper Type-R 480W)

Have you confirmed that the short-circuit reading across the 5vSB output is now gone?
Did you be sure to put the diodes in the correct way around?
Did you check for solder bridges?

Can you post a photo of the PSU now?
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Old 06-18-2018, 05:01 PM   #20
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Default Re: Help an untrained ear to identify this sound? (unplugging a Hiper Type-R 480W)

can you still hear the high frequency shut down noise ?
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