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Old 09-19-2012, 12:30 PM   #1
vsmGuy
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Default Can I test or operate APC Smart UPS 2200 off a single RBC7

I have a noisy APC Smart UPS 1000 that has a single RBC7.

I have someone interested in selling me a APC Smart UPS 2200XL.

The 2200XL unit does not turn on, so it might be that the batteries require replacement or that the unit itself is dead.

1. Would I be able to plug the RBC7 that I have into one of the connectors of the APC Smart UPS 2200XL and have it come up (hence telling me the unit itself is good and the batteries require replacement)?

The APC Smart UPS 2200XL requires two batteries - APC calls the pair RBC11.

Here is the schematic for the 2200XL: http://www.upsclub.org/schem/APC/734/640-734K12.pdf

2. If the APC Smart UPS 2200XL turns out to be working, I would like to keep it running on a single RBC7 - since I really don't need the output power of the 2200XL (I would only be connecting 700W worth of load to it at any time)

Has anyone tried to run an APC Smart UPS 2200(XL) off a single RBC7 instead of loading it up with the specified RBC11

3. I guess what I am asking is if the APC Smart UPS 2200 "sees" the RBC11 as a single 24V battery or as two separate 24V batteries.

If the APC Smart UPS 2200 "sees" the RBC11 as a single 24V battery, I might be able to cheat it and get it to operate off a single RBC7.

However, if the APC Smart UPS 2200 "sees" the RBC11 as two separate 24V batteries, I might not be able to make it operate off a single RBC7.

4. Has anyone tried to check if the RBC11 is compatible with 2 * RBC7?
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Old 09-19-2012, 06:36 PM   #2
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Default Re: Can I test or operate APC Smart UPS 2200 off a single RBC7

iirc the 2200 is a 48v system.
the 1000 is 24v.
what do you mean by noisy?hissing?
replace all the small caps.
the 2200 is prone to this too.
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Old 09-19-2012, 06:39 PM   #3
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Default Re: Can I test or operate APC Smart UPS 2200 off a single RBC7

UPS are much more simpler than it seems: when it seems the problem are batteries, they really are. If it seems the problem are not batteries, the problem still are batteries. In any other case…its batteries usually

In almost any case when there is multpiple batteries, at least some of them are in series. Higher voltage means lower current which equals in lower losses on wiring, transformer and pretty much everything. Also batteries are happier with lower output current.

EDIT: yep, it needs two 17Ah/24V packs (4×17 Ah/12 V in series).

As for using two lower capacity batteries, I personally tend to increase capacity since it equals in longer battery-backup time and longer overall battery life. But if you only need the UPS running for a minute before the PC shuts down, I think its just fine. But for testing you can use almsot anything what works at least somehow to turn on relay, than the UPS powers on. Without that the relay is closed and the 230V (115V) voltage is not connected.

As for wiring non compatible cables: you can buy original cables from APC, but they tend to be somewhat expensive. You can use ordinary fastons, I am also making something like faston reduction for the 17Ah batteries to connect them into SUA1000. Basically set your fantasy free, but be sure it is connected very securely, there are great currents during operation and higher transitional resistance can set the thing on fire or even cause explosion!
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Last edited by Behemot; 09-19-2012 at 06:48 PM..
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Old 09-19-2012, 09:04 PM   #4
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Default Re: Can I test or operate APC Smart UPS 2200 off a single RBC7

Quote:
Originally Posted by kc8adu View Post
iirc the 2200 is a 48v system.
the 1000 is 24v.
what do you mean by noisy?hissing?
replace all the small caps.
the 2200 is prone to this too.
I posted the schematic to the model: would you be able to show me where the two batteries are being added together to get 48V (because each individual battery is 24V) - I am interested.

The UPS that buzzes is the 1000VA one i have - sounds exactly like a camera flash charging up - but continuously. The thread where I reported this last month is active again if you want to check it out..
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Old 09-19-2012, 10:35 PM   #5
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Default Re: Can I test or operate APC Smart UPS 2200 off a single RBC7

I do not think this unit will not run on 12V, 24V, 36V! This unit runs on eight 12V 9Ah batteries (it looks like they have 4 of them in series per bank and then parallel the two banks together, two red wires and two black wires from the batteries pack). One RBC27 batteries pack required.
The unit will shutdown when batteries are too low, or over current draw.
http://www.apc.com/resource/include/...u=su2200rmxl3u
RBC27 batteries pack:http://www.apc.com/products/resource...base_sku=RBC27

Replacement batteries, you need eight 12V batteries!
http://www.batterysharks.com/APC-RBC...ups12-9_x8.htm

http://www.replaceupsbattery.com/apc...FWHZQgodJFoA-w
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Last edited by budm; 09-19-2012 at 10:43 PM..
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Old 09-19-2012, 11:06 PM   #6
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Default Re: Can I test or operate APC Smart UPS 2200 off a single RBC7

I think the easiest way is to open the UPS, just remove the big metal plate on top, there will be several screws on that. Than you will see whether both 17Ah/24V packs are in series or paralel.
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Old 09-19-2012, 11:11 PM   #7
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Default Re: Can I test or operate APC Smart UPS 2200 off a single RBC7

There are eight 12V batteries inside the batteries pack. At 1500Watts, if it runs on 48V, it will draw about 31A, if it uses 24V it will draw about 62A, the wires it is using will not be able to handle 62A.

Last edited by budm; 09-19-2012 at 11:14 PM..
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Old 09-19-2012, 11:15 PM   #8
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Default Re: Can I test or operate APC Smart UPS 2200 off a single RBC7

Who cares? This UPS eats RBC11: http://www.apc.com/products/resource..._sku=SU2200XLI APC does this all the time: if there is minor upgrade, they don't even change the product code, if there is major upgrade, they change product code but keep the name. You just found one or two generations newer 2200 XL than we are talking about
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Old 09-19-2012, 11:21 PM   #9
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Default Re: Can I test or operate APC Smart UPS 2200 off a single RBC7

It is still 48V system:
http://www.batteryspec.com/cgi-bin/c...FWThQgod9x4AAw
So now they use 12V 18Ah instead pf 12V 9Ah.
Still same capacity.
Care about what?

Last edited by budm; 09-19-2012 at 11:24 PM..
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Old 09-19-2012, 11:25 PM   #10
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Default Re: Can I test or operate APC Smart UPS 2200 off a single RBC7

Most likely, it is most logical, but with APC, you never know. You get two separate packs with that fancy APC connectors, with two batteries each pack. That does not say anything about how it is connected inside the UPS.
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Old 09-20-2012, 12:21 PM   #11
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Default Re: Can I test or operate APC Smart UPS 2200 off a single RBC7

Quote:
Originally Posted by budm View Post
I do not think this unit will not run on 12V, 24V, 36V! This unit runs on eight 12V 9Ah batteries (it looks like they have 4 of them in series per bank and then parallel the two banks together, two red wires and two black wires from the batteries pack). One RBC27 batteries pack required.
The unit will shutdown when batteries are too low, or over current draw.
http://www.apc.com/resource/include/...u=su2200rmxl3u
RBC27 batteries pack:http://www.apc.com/products/resource...base_sku=RBC27

Replacement batteries, you need eight 12V batteries!
http://www.batterysharks.com/APC-RBC...ups12-9_x8.htm

http://www.replaceupsbattery.com/apc...FWHZQgodJFoA-w
Quote:
Originally Posted by Behemot View Post
Who cares? This UPS eats RBC11: http://www.apc.com/products/resource..._sku=SU2200XLI APC does this all the time: if there is minor upgrade, they don't even change the product code, if there is major upgrade, they change product code but keep the name. You just found one or two generations newer 2200 XL than we are talking about
I got to have a quick look at the unit on way to work, will look into it in details over the weekend.

Model number: SU2200XLNET

It has an external blue connector that says 48VDC but the schematic I linked has no 48VDC Input - the highest it goes is 24VDC

If the batteries are dead, a 48VDC system would cost me a ton of Benjamins to replace - I am not sure whether to go ahead with this.

How do I find the year of manufacture from the serial number on these UPS?
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Old 09-20-2012, 02:07 PM   #12
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Default Re: Can I test or operate APC Smart UPS 2200 off a single RBC7

OK, if there is 48V external, then they are in series. You can get some four pieces with lower capacity…

I guess you can easily find aproximate year by just searching the web with model number and having a look when they have been selling/last on stock and so.
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Old 09-20-2012, 03:24 PM   #13
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Default Re: Can I test or operate APC Smart UPS 2200 off a single RBC7

Quote:
Originally Posted by Behemot View Post
OK, if there is 48V external, then they are in series. You can get some four pieces with lower capacity…

I guess you can easily find aproximate year by just searching the web with model number and having a look when they have been selling/last on stock and so.
Thank you Behemot: does it mean that the UPS sees the internal RBC11 as a single battery as well?

This would mean that it does not charge each battery individually and then I will have to be very careful with the new batteries I buy (one bad battery can affect all of them since they are in series)

This would perhaps ALSO mean I can buy those deep cycle RV batteries?
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Old 09-20-2012, 04:24 PM   #14
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Default Re: Can I test or operate APC Smart UPS 2200 off a single RBC7

RBC11 consists of two 24V batteries which are connected in series to get 48V output. The 24V and 12V as shown in the circuits are generated by the internal switching power suppy that step down the 48VDC down to 12V and 24V, see the diagram in page 6
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Old 09-20-2012, 04:53 PM   #15
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Default Re: Can I test or operate APC Smart UPS 2200 off a single RBC7

Quote:
Originally Posted by budm View Post
RBC11 consists of two 24V batteries which are connected in series to get 48V output. The 24V and 12V as shown in the circuits are generated by the internal switching power suppy that step down the 48VDC down to 12V and 24V, see the diagram in page 6
Oh yes - the +BATT goes through the fuse to become +BATTF and then it goes to the transformer which has 24V and 12 taps.

Hmm, but could you answer the above question I had:

does it mean that the UPS sees the internal RBC11 as a single battery as well?

This would mean that it does not charge each battery individually and then I will have to be very careful with the new batteries I buy (one bad battery can affect all of them since they are in series)

This would perhaps ALSO mean I can buy those deep cycle RV batteries?
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Old 09-21-2012, 09:25 AM   #16
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Default Re: Can I test or operate APC Smart UPS 2200 off a single RBC7

I got a closer look at it this morning on the way to work:

1. The batteries are hardwired in series by a thick yellow wire. The individual batteries measure 26.3V each off load.

2. site wiring fault led is on (hmm, now why would that happen besides the obvious?)

3. And guess what - this too has that high pitched buzzing noise that my APC 1000VA has! Now unless this is surely an issue with the batteries being old, I now have sunk in way too much money in products that simply aged and perhaps no good anymore (or require major overhaul to become good again)
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Old 09-21-2012, 09:42 AM   #17
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Default Re: Can I test or operate APC Smart UPS 2200 off a single RBC7

Most UPS (below $5000) will charge the batteries that are connected is series by just charging them in series mode, it will cause a lot more to use individual isolalated charging or balancing cirucit to charge the batteries. So if one of the batteries in series become open circuit or short circuit, then the batteries will not be charged (open batteries), or over charged (shorted batteries).

site wiring fault led is on : open safety ground or Hot/Neutral wiring reversed?
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Old 09-21-2012, 11:34 AM   #18
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Default Re: Can I test or operate APC Smart UPS 2200 off a single RBC7

Quote:
Originally Posted by budm View Post
Most UPS (below $5000) will charge the batteries that are connected is series by just charging them in series mode, it will cause a lot more to use individual isolalated charging or balancing cirucit to charge the batteries. So if one of the batteries in series become open circuit or short circuit, then the batteries will not be charged (open batteries), or over charged (shorted batteries).
Exactly - hence my concerns in #13

Anyways, as the UPS does not charge each battery individually I could perhaps buy those deep cycle RV batteries instead?

Any good models in mind that I could buy from a B&M store?

Quote:
Originally Posted by budm View Post
site wiring fault led is on : open safety ground or Hot/Neutral wiring reversed?
Possibly - I wired the input myself as it came with NEMA L5-30P.

What else could be the reason (I saw a 1500VA unit from CL that worked fine but its site wiring fault led was always on no matter where we plugged in. Guy ended selling it for $85, whereas he could have got a benjamin more had that LED been working right)
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Old 09-21-2012, 12:01 PM   #19
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Default Re: Can I test or operate APC Smart UPS 2200 off a single RBC7

L5-30 (120v 30A, 3-WIRE) Twisted lock. How did you wire it up? Black (Hot) should go to the brass screw (L), White (Neutral) should go the Chrome screw (N), Green(Safety Ground) should go to Green screw.
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Old 09-21-2012, 06:28 PM   #20
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Default Re: Can I test or operate APC Smart UPS 2200 off a single RBC7

Well isn't it obvious the UPS will be buzzing under all circuimstances? You have huge 50/60 Hz transformer inside, you cannot totally avoid resonance. What I have seen so far, when it operates on batteries, the buzzing is much worse.

As for bad batteries, well, most of the times when one battery in pack dies, the second one is very close to death anyway. Just swapping batteries in like 40 UPS and there was only UPS one where one battery in 3-b pack was destroyed. The other two have been charging and stuff, but weared out, having higher internal resistance thus making UPS where I connected them turning off prematurely.

And what I have also seen on them, no matter how bad caps the UPSes got and how old they are (some model are way beyond 10 years), they all function perfectly. Besides the huge fultering caps there is not much stress on them. So I don't think you actually have problem, at least with the buzzing, thats normal.
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