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Old 09-21-2012, 07:04 PM   #1
bigbeark
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Default Suggest Filtering Upgrade for ICAN PSU

The PSU in the pics is an ICAN DR-8500BTX Rated at 500W.

It uses the ERL-35 Transformer and the Primary Mosfets are large, labelled 13009. I suspect the real rating is less than 350 watt.

I would like to enhance the primary filtering, as you can see I have already yanked out the Asia-X caps and substituted UCC KY and Panasonic WG.

I have included a pic of the Primary filtering on the SH250 PSU which also uses ERL-35, for comparison, and a pic of an X2 cap I liberated from another PSU that I hope to use in this one.

If someone can suggest the missing filter elements and where they should go it would be great.

Thanks in advance
Attached Images
File Type: jpg ICAN Top Cover 6.jpg (888.4 KB, 32 views)
File Type: jpg ICAN Top View 2.jpg (1.06 MB, 52 views)
File Type: jpg ICAN Primary 3.jpg (819.2 KB, 36 views)
File Type: jpg ICAN Secondary 4.jpg (1,010.3 KB, 35 views)
File Type: jpg ICAN Transformers 5.jpg (728.4 KB, 32 views)
File Type: jpg ICAN Primary Filtering 7.jpg (947.1 KB, 37 views)
File Type: jpg SHI Primary.jpg (958.4 KB, 39 views)
File Type: jpg ICAN Proposed X2 Filter 8.jpg (1,019.6 KB, 27 views)
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Old 09-21-2012, 09:43 PM   #2
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Default Re: Suggest Filtering Upgrade for ICAN PSU

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbeark View Post
Panasonic WG.
You mean Sanyo WG.
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Old 09-21-2012, 10:17 PM   #3
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Default Re: Suggest Filtering Upgrade for ICAN PSU

If I'm not mistaken, size 35 transformers look larger than that... I think that's size 33, which makes it not much more than 250W. So yes, definitely not 350W, much less 500W, though since this is a Deer PSU it's no surprise and it looks halfway decent for a PSU of that ilk. A PBU605 (6A) rectifying bridge seems to be more than enough for 250-350W. Maybe it could use another X capacitor in the transient filtering, if I'm not mistaken (I'm assuming the grey one you removed is from it). It may also be able to use another ferrite coil, and I'd upgrade that transformer to genuine 35 size. Its heatsinks are average at best, in my eyes. Its secondary rectifiers and capacitors will also determine what it can do, along with the quality of its fan. It may be able to use more MOVs too, along with more Y capacitors.

Last edited by Wester547; 09-21-2012 at 10:26 PM..
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Old 09-22-2012, 04:14 AM   #4
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Default Re: Suggest Filtering Upgrade for ICAN PSU

2 coils
2 Y capacitors
2 X capacitors
1 inrush current limiter (NTC thermistor)
optional: 1 or 2 MOVs for surges


You need to add 1 more coil and 1 extra X capacitor (CX2).

Last edited by goodpsusearch; 09-22-2012 at 04:19 AM..
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Old 09-22-2012, 04:42 AM   #5
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Default Re: Suggest Filtering Upgrade for ICAN PSU

Yes, the one marked ERL-35-2005 is actually an EI-33. Will do 300W, not any more. The one in the 7th pic market only ERL-35, is a real ERL-35.
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Old 09-22-2012, 05:53 AM   #6
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Default Re: Suggest Filtering Upgrade for ICAN PSU

Thanks for all the suggestions, much appreciated.

I'm not very knowlegeable re electronics, so please clarify the following for me:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Wester547 View Post
since this is a Deer PSU
I looked up 233191 on CSA site, could not find it. How do you know it's a Deer?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Wester547 View Post
Maybe it could use another X capacitor in the transient filtering, if I'm not mistaken (I'm assuming the grey one you removed is from it). It may also be able to use another ferrite
I removed the grey X2 cap from a different PSU. I am assuming it would go into location CX2 on the ICAN and that orientation does not matter as these caps are not polarized.

Location CX1 on the ICAN is already occupied by the large brown device.
Should this be replaced by another X2 cap?

CN1 and CN3 locations are open. Where does the ferrite coil go?

Quote:
Originally Posted by goodpsusearch View Post
2 coils
2 Y capacitors
2 X capacitors
1 inrush current limiter (NTC thermistor)
optional: 1 or 2 MOVs for surges


You need to add 1 more coil and 1 extra X capacitor (CX2).
So I add the grey X2 cap shown at location CX2?

Where does the extra coil go?

Location CX1 on the ICAN is already occupied by the large brown device.
Is this thing an X cap?
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Old 09-22-2012, 06:07 AM   #7
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Default Re: Suggest Filtering Upgrade for ICAN PSU

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbeark View Post
I looked up 233191 on CSA site, could not find it. How do you know it's a Deer?
"Model: DR-8500BTX" - that gives it away.
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Old 09-22-2012, 06:20 AM   #8
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Default Re: Suggest Filtering Upgrade for ICAN PSU

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbeark View Post

Where does the extra coil go?
2 years ago I added a coil at a Deer psu like yours. Here are some photos for your help:

before:
http://www.badcaps.net/forum/attachm...3&d=1257287093
http://www.badcaps.net/forum/attachm...4&d=1257287093

after:
http://www.badcaps.net/forum/attachm...2&d=1276874565
http://www.badcaps.net/forum/attachm...3&d=1276874565

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbeark View Post

Location CX1 on the ICAN is already occupied by the large brown device.
Is this thing an X cap?
It's a low quality X cap.
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Old 09-22-2012, 06:51 AM   #9
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Default Re: Suggest Filtering Upgrade for ICAN PSU

It's not an X cap at all. It's a polypropylene capacitor. The difference? In operation - none. However, when subject to excessive line surges, an X cap fails with a puff of smoke and goes open. A poly cap burns and can start a dangerous fire as it will not self-extinguish.
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Old 09-22-2012, 09:29 AM   #10
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Default Re: Suggest Filtering Upgrade for ICAN PSU

I have attached 6 new pics. The Delta Donor board , picture #1, shows the remaining X2 cap still on the board. These are 22uf 275V. Is this capacitance adequate? I note the Delta coil has way more wire turns of a smaller diameter than in goodpsusearch photo.

I am suggesting using a secondary coil shown in picture #2 taken from an old dead Deer PSU, and adjusting the number of wire turns and reorienting the leads to suit the "new Deer" DR-8500.

Are the number of turns on this ferrite coil significant? This coil is one continuous piece of wire wrapped around the ferrite core. For curiosity sake, what is the difference between this and the vertical coils shown, in picture 6, where the wire is coiled around a ferrite rod?i

If I yank the brown suitcase polypropylene cap at CX1 on the DR-8500 and replace it with the grey Delta X2 does the orientation matter at all?

I threw in picture #3 of the old Deer showing EI-33 in company with the EE-19, indeed suggesting that the DR-8500 ERL-35 is fake.

I am also suspicious of those "Saturn" 680uf primaries on the Deer DR-8500. The pics of the old Deer primaries,picture #4, show 470uf, but they actually measure 330uf with the capacitance meter.

Those polypropylene caps sound dangerous. Should they always be replaced with proper X-type caps?

Thanks for your comments
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Delta Donor #1.jpg (890.8 KB, 22 views)
File Type: jpg Deer Ferrite for Reuse.jpg (985.2 KB, 19 views)
File Type: jpg Deer Donor Board #1.jpg (978.3 KB, 23 views)
File Type: jpg Deer Fake Primaries 330uf.jpg (792.6 KB, 20 views)
File Type: jpg Delta 12v Transformer.jpg (811.8 KB, 21 views)
File Type: jpg Delta Vertical coils.jpg (812.1 KB, 21 views)
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Old 09-22-2012, 09:51 AM   #11
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Default Re: Suggest Filtering Upgrade for ICAN PSU

Yes, I would recommend replacement of those. It would in fact be better without that cap at all, even if it kicks back more EMI, it means less fire hazard. China will do anything to cut corners...

See this thread for info about fake primaries - you have noticed a very common trend:
http://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthread.php?t=19638
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Old 09-22-2012, 09:58 AM   #12
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Default Re: Suggest Filtering Upgrade for ICAN PSU

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbeark View Post

I am suggesting using a secondary coil shown in picture #2 taken from an old dead Deer PSU, and adjusting the number of wire turns and reorienting the leads to suit the "new Deer" DR-8500.
No, this is completely not compatible. You need a coil taken from a primary filtering section of a power supply. The coil shown on the first picture (LFZ280..) is compatible, but unfortunately there is no space on your Deer psu for that type of coil. So you have to pick a coil like the one shown at my previous post. The other thing near the white X cap could be an optional filtering part that is used in some power supplies. Have in mind that the coil needs to filter both Line and Neutral of the AC.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbeark View Post

If I yank the brown suitcase polypropylene cap at CX1 on the DR-8500 and replace it with the grey Delta X2 does the orientation matter at all?
X and Y caps don't have + and - iirc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbeark View Post

Those polypropylene caps sound dangerous. Should they always be replaced with proper X-type caps?
I didn't change them in a power supply I fully recapped, but I don't know if that's a good idea.
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Old 09-22-2012, 10:04 AM   #13
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Default Re: Suggest Filtering Upgrade for ICAN PSU

1. I thought those brown lumpy things are X caps?
2. I hope this PSU isn't an ICANN-accredited registrar
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Old 09-22-2012, 10:09 AM   #14
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Default Re: Suggest Filtering Upgrade for ICAN PSU

Quote:
Originally Posted by shovenose View Post
1. I thought those brown lumpy things are X caps?
An X-cap looks like the left image; Y-cap middle; poly cap the right.

X and Y caps are safety rated. They are both rated to open on failure. X caps are live to neutral; Y caps are live-earth or neutral-earth. They must NEVER be interchanged.

I had a BBC Micro which had an X-cap failure. A bit of smoke came out of the back. You can see the failure in the below image:
http://www.badcaps.net/forum/attachm...9&d=1325952789

This cap failed safely, as after letting the magic smoke out, it failed open.
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Old 09-22-2012, 02:52 PM   #15
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Default Re: Suggest Filtering Upgrade for ICAN PSU

Re X caps, Panasonic had/has one or more agency-approved series with polyester dielectric and dipped in brown epoxy. The one in that P/S could be one of those, though it looks a bit small. More likely a DC-rated polyester or polypropylene part. Both polyester and polypropylene can be used in agency-approved X caps. The part removed from the Delta P/S was made by Iskra, formerly of Yugoslavia (not sure if Serbian, Croatian or ??), and the "MKP" on the case means it's a metallized polypropylene capacitor.
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Old 09-22-2012, 03:08 PM   #16
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Default Re: Suggest Filtering Upgrade for ICAN PSU

Further ... AFAIK, both X and Y caps are available in polyester, polypropylene, impregnated paper and ceramic dielectrics. So, for example, not all Y caps are disc ceramic like what tom showed; and I'm pretty sure that box case X cap in his pic has polypropylene dielectric. As I mentioned above, there are agency-approved parts in epoxy-dipped packages, and Roederstein had/has X caps in a cylindrical radial-lead case.

Bottom line, you have to read the markings on the part. Look for the agency approval marks. Look for a "~" after the voltage. Look for "X" or "Y". Look for "MKT" or "MKP" (metallized polyester and polypropylene). I wish I could say there is consistency from brand to brand, but those are common markings. You might need a magnifier for some of the smaller ceramic disc parts.
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Old 09-22-2012, 03:13 PM   #17
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Default Re: Suggest Filtering Upgrade for ICAN PSU

That is new to me. I've only ever seen the box type X caps and blue dipped Y caps. I thought it was an industry standard of sorts. I wouldn't entirely trust the markings though, as they could be fake, like a lot of things in the cheaper PSUs.
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Old 09-22-2012, 08:47 PM   #18
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Default Re: Suggest Filtering Upgrade for ICAN PSU

Quote:
Originally Posted by tom66 View Post
That is new to me. I've only ever seen the box type X caps and blue dipped Y caps. I thought it was an industry standard of sorts. I wouldn't entirely trust the markings though, as they could be fake, like a lot of things in the cheaper PSUs.
I've seen regular ceramic caps used for y-caps!

Yes, some could be fake. I have seen a few blue 'y' caps which only say '102M 250v'. Only once have I seen a regular red film cap used as an x-cap.
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Old 09-22-2012, 09:00 PM   #19
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Default Re: Suggest Filtering Upgrade for ICAN PSU

Chipping in with a picture:

X caps aren't always yellow.... this is from an old psu from the times of 486/pentium .. you can see the x caps, the y caps behind and a ntc thermistor

x1.jpg
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Old 09-23-2012, 12:35 AM   #20
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Default Re: Suggest Filtering Upgrade for ICAN PSU

They can be any colour... I've seen yellow y-caps.... just never seen a non-box x-cap.
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