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    #21
    Re: Building my first HTPC

    I think I'm gonna stick to OTA HD + Satellite. If it wasn't for live sports and specialty channels (like Discovery and History) I'd be satisfied with just the OTA stuff. I have 7.0 Mbps service but with a stupid cap on bandwidth means I can't rely solely on the internet.

    Bgavin you just unintentionally reminded me that I don't need to buy a tuner card yet to test out what channels I can get OTA. I forgot that my new Sony TV has the digital tuner built in so all I need is the antenna to try it out.

    Comment


      #22
      Re: Building my first HTPC

      Originally posted by bgavin View Post
      For starters, the video streamers don't transmit movies in 16 colors.
      The point is 1080x does not make the -content- HD.
      --
      Some broadcasters are using 1080x and reducing the image quality to reduce their bandwidth load.
      The result is SD quality with a 1080x resolution.

      -- And that will affect the bandwidth you need to view it.
      .

      Personally SD is good enough for me but some people are paying more to get HD quality and only actually getting SD and don't know it.
      .
      Last edited by PCBONEZ; 10-28-2010, 03:38 PM.
      Mann-Made Global Warming.
      - We should be more concerned about the Intellectual Climate.

      -
      Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.

      - Dr Seuss
      -
      You can teach a man to fish and feed him for life, but if he can't handle sushi you must also teach him to cook.
      -

      Comment


        #23
        Re: Building my first HTPC

        Originally posted by Deft View Post
        I think I'm gonna stick to OTA HD + Satellite.
        .
        Over-the-air HDTV can be received using a regular TV antenna.
        Not a digital antenna, not an hdtv antenna, just a plain old-fashioned tv antenna.

        The frequencies are all the same as old-fashioned tv.
        The signal strength is a little less, that's all that has really changed.
        You -might- need a plain old-fashioned tv antenna amp to go with the old-fashioned tv antenna, but that's ALL you should need.
        .
        Mann-Made Global Warming.
        - We should be more concerned about the Intellectual Climate.

        -
        Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.

        - Dr Seuss
        -
        You can teach a man to fish and feed him for life, but if he can't handle sushi you must also teach him to cook.
        -

        Comment


          #24
          Re: Building my first HTPC

          Originally posted by Deft View Post
          I think I'm gonna stick to OTA HD + Satellite. If it wasn't for live sports and specialty channels (like Discovery and History) I'd be satisfied with just the OTA stuff.
          Here is the TV Fool report for my specific address, with the antenna 20 feet above ground level.

          My area is in a well documented depression which shows up as a blue area on all the TV coverage maps.
          Despite this, I get excellent reception with a modest antenna height.

          If you are into rolling your own, there are some very smart guys on the Digital Home forum, out of Canada.
          Pay special attention to the Gray-Hoverman project.

          My U8000 is designed as UHF only, but I get VHF 9 (PBS) and 10 (ABC) very strong anyway. Go figure.
          In Canada, you are set to lose channels > 51 next year, or thereabouts. It has already happened here in the US.
          Antennas are optimized for the highest working channel, so > 51 is a waste nowadays.

          The only antenna I am aware of being designed for the reduced channel range in the US is Denny's HD Stacker.
          He is a TV tech in Michigan, and had Winegard build an antenna to his specs.
          His test results are testimonial to excellent results for both VHF and UHF.

          The problem with OTA is the content.
          I'm not interested in SitComs and cop shows, so OTA is limited for me.
          Satellite/Cable is much higher quality than Internet, much less "fiddly" than antennas and HTPC, but very costly.
          If you just want to sit on your butt and use the simple remote, Satellite/Cable is where it's at. But you pay dearly for it.

          My erratic internet was running at 5.1 Mbps last night, and HULU (free) was still choking. NetFlix is much better, but their HD image quality is nowhere close to a real DVD.
          I bumped up from 1.5 to 6.0, and the performance is very ragged.
          Something is broken at the switching office... < sigh > it never ends.

          Comment


            #25
            Re: Building my first HTPC

            I can't think of a good reason to -unbuild- an antenna to not get stations that aren't there anyway.

            We only get OTA. Don't need or want anything else.
            My wife already records far more than I'm willing to watch and twice what she has time to watch.
            More shows would be useless.

            If she wasn't around I'd never turn the stupid thing on.
            I hadn't owned one for several years when I met her.
            .
            Mann-Made Global Warming.
            - We should be more concerned about the Intellectual Climate.

            -
            Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.

            - Dr Seuss
            -
            You can teach a man to fish and feed him for life, but if he can't handle sushi you must also teach him to cook.
            -

            Comment


              #26
              Re: Building my first HTPC

              OK, I can give you a good reason: bandwidth optimization.

              UHV is designed specifically for the highest channel.
              That used to be 80-something, then dropped to 60-something, now dropped to 51 in the US.

              Redesigning the antenna to peak at channel 51 provides a lot more gain in the lower end of the range.

              Are you having a bad day?
              Every comment in this thread is negative so far...

              Comment


                #27
                Re: Building my first HTPC

                I fail to see how stating that you don't need a new antenna is negative.
                Except perhaps to someone looking for an excuse to buy one.

                A ~peak~ in a curve at 51 doesn't necessarily mean ~more~ at 51 than some other option.
                That's an advertising word game.
                One design might be optimized for 51 and it's peak is 10dB where as another could be optimized for 69 but it's dB at 51 is 20dB and it's dB at the low end also double the first.
                A well designed antenna wouldn't have much of a peak at all. It's responce curve through it's range would be nearly flat.

                IOW a GOOD good old-fashioned tv antenna could still kick it's butt depending on the specific parts.

                Not to mention that 51 is UHF.
                Not going to optimize 2-13 [which are VHF] by tweaking the UHF section of an array.
                .
                Last edited by PCBONEZ; 10-29-2010, 02:16 PM.
                Mann-Made Global Warming.
                - We should be more concerned about the Intellectual Climate.

                -
                Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.

                - Dr Seuss
                -
                You can teach a man to fish and feed him for life, but if he can't handle sushi you must also teach him to cook.
                -

                Comment


                  #28
                  Re: Building my first HTPC

                  Baloney.

                  Take some time away your 5,000+ posts, and go check out the antenna design site mentioned above.
                  You will find the rising curve for the commercial antennas is optimized at the highest channel in the design range.
                  It is not done in the center of the range.
                  There are some very smart guys over there, and you will no doubt learn something about flat response curves.

                  I really don't care if you want to be the self-anointed grumpy old fart and pick on my typo of "UHV" which should have been "UHF". I could not care less.
                  BTW, in American English "Response" is spelled with an "s", not a "c".

                  Comment


                    #29
                    Re: Building my first HTPC

                    Originally posted by bgavin View Post
                    Baloney.

                    Take some time away your 5,000+ posts, and go check out the antenna design site mentioned above.
                    You will find the rising curve for the commercial antennas is optimized at the highest channel in the design range.
                    It is not done in the center of the range.
                    There are some very smart guys over there, and you will no doubt learn something about flat response curves.

                    I really don't care if you want to be the self-anointed grumpy old fart and pick on my typo of "UHV" which should have been "UHF". I could not care less.
                    BTW, in American English "Response" is spelled with an "s", not a "c".
                    .
                    Umm, no it's not baloney. - And antennas aren't rocket science.

                    I did look at your hero Denny's HD Stacker. - Did you even look at the data for that thing?
                    First:
                    Despite the ad-hype, it's a just a -LARGE- plain old-fashioned TV antenna. [Which as I said is all that's needed for HD.]
                    When it comes to antennas bigger is better. There is nothing new or fantastic about that at all.
                    All he did was split the VHF and UHF in a BIG old-fashioned antenna into two separate parts.
                    http://www.dennysantennaservice.com/...na_design.html
                    That technique is probably 60-70 years old.
                    Second:
                    He avoids using the industry performance numbers of gain in dB and instead uses the strength bars from some TV set as his indicator.
                    Not a sign he actually knows what he's doing. Either that or he's trying to hide something.
                    Third:
                    Looking here:
                    http://www.dennysantennaservice.com/...V_Antenna.html
                    The only place in it's response curve where the HD Stacker does -noticeably- better [or is flatter] than the next 4 or 5 down [down according to Danny] are the channels below 12.
                    And again here:
                    http://www.dennysantennaservice.com/...na_design.html
                    It's only significantly better at the low numbered channels.
                    HARDLY indicates 'optimized' for Ch 51. - It's not even -noticeably- better at Ch 51 than the others.
                    In fact the data shows clearly that it's 'optimized' for channels: 12, 16, 22, and 36.
                    As are EVERY ONE of the others in that table, which are commercial antennas and thus this is debunked.
                    Originally posted by bgavin View Post
                    You will find the rising curve for the commercial antennas is optimized at the highest channel in the design range.
                    It is not done in the center of the range.
                    The U8000 you have is a fancy version of the loop antennas on rabbit ears only with more elements.
                    More elements [surface area] gives better reception. Nothing new there. Same reason is for multiple antennas on a WIFI routers.
                    It's called a bow-tie antenna. Some Rabbit Ears used bow-tie elements instead of the loop elements beginning ages ago.
                    It's a 1950's design that wasn't popular for out-door TV antennas and was brought back to 'the front' by marketers feeding on gullible people that think they need a special antenna for HD. People aren't used to the 'look' so they think it's new and 'special'. - NOT!
                    - If you take 8 rabbit ear loops and connect them together you basically have the same thing as a U8000.
                    - In fact I compared a commercial 1-bay bow-tie antenna to a pair of umpteen year old Rabbit Ears with 1 loop.
                    - The Rabbit Ears won hands down so 8 Rabbit Ear loops might do -better- than a U8000.
                    The Gray-Hoverman project is just a home built U8000 type bow-tie antenna.
                    Nothing new in that -antenna design- at all. The only thing different is how the antenna parts are held together.

                    Your 'oh so smart' buddies in that forum are using basic antenna principles and math I learned in 1981.
                    They are really 'into it' and that's fine but what they are doing is nothing new, it hasn't changed in decades, and it does not require a particularly high IQ.
                    - That said, I forgot antenna crap shortly after finishing that school because it's useless info if you aren't going to design antennas and it's -easy- to look up if you ever care to try. However I DO clearly remember how EASY it was to learn and do. Easy topic. NOT rocket science!

                    I see no reason to reinvent the wheel when there are PLENTY of good well tested designs out there and all you have to do is to be able to read and interpret data sheets to find a good one. And even if paying $200 or more, it's something that will probably last much longer than 20 years which means that price ain't shit.

                    ~
                    I'm amazed that someone that has been around as long as you have looses it with terms related to performance and data.
                    "Optimized for xxx" does not guarantee "better than" something else not optimized for xxx.
                    It's a marketing/advertising word game and all it is.
                    See the little drawing. It's not a tough to grasp concept.
                    [I thought I'd draw it vice writing another 1000 words.]

                    ~
                    - A large share of my 5,000+ posts are me helping people with problems.
                    - I try to teach the concept vice just giving the answer. [Teach a man to fish thing.]
                    - I also follow up when I can.
                    - And I bother to go out of my way to help someone when needed.
                    I'm not the least bit embarrassed about that.
                    >>> On a number of occasions YOU were one of those people I helped.
                    OTOH:
                    I never see you show up -just- to help other people, nor do you go out of your way to do so.
                    I only see you join or start a thread when you want [to know] something.
                    -
                    In my mind if I help someone they should help someone else, and that person should help someone else, and that person should help someone else, and that person should help someone else, and on and on.
                    One Way people break that chain.
                    But this Grumpy Old Fart helps One Way people when he can anyway. [Maybe some day they'll get it.]

                    ~
                    And yeah, I call bullshit when I see it. I'm not embarrassed about that either.
                    That amounts to warning someone about a pit-fall.
                    I stop people before they walk in front of moving cars too.

                    ~
                    And just twisting the situation blade a bit.
                    All our local stations have repeaters on the same mountain, so all are the same direction.
                    Where we live now [~14 miles to repeaters] we get 40+ channels [all of them] with set-top Rabbit Ears and a cheap POS amp.
                    I never put up an outdoor antenna here because we don't need one.
                    -
                    Your location SUX!
                    You are smack in the middle between stations.
                    If you want all the channels either need a REALLY FREAKIN' BIG antenna pointed S by SE or to use two in different directions.
                    If they have an omnidirectional that's good for over 100 miles that might might work but I've never seen one.
                    [Due in no small part to never having looked.]

                    ~
                    YEah I dOn't tyPe tOo well witH somEonE yaCking in MY Ear about a DaMned mOvie.
                    She won. We went out and saw RED at the -real- big screen. - Thumbs up.

                    I hope that's enough to quell the jealousy issue you have with me spending time with other people.
                    -
                    Smooch smooch.
                    .
                    Attached Files
                    Last edited by PCBONEZ; 10-30-2010, 04:16 AM.
                    Mann-Made Global Warming.
                    - We should be more concerned about the Intellectual Climate.

                    -
                    Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.

                    - Dr Seuss
                    -
                    You can teach a man to fish and feed him for life, but if he can't handle sushi you must also teach him to cook.
                    -

                    Comment


                      #30
                      Re: Building my first HTPC

                      ROFLMAO!!

                      And he's -not- a -self annoited- Grumpy Olde Farte.

                      I did that

                      Now that was some good debunking! I saw that site and said, gee that looks like the stuff we used to put up for installations when I started out.

                      So you really just need the $29.95 Radio Shack POS V/U/FM antenna for the attic or roof and digital would likely be fine. Yeah, I'm at ~20 miles to transmitters, and the ones I want are all in the same general location. I hate cable and the crap they are now pulling by moving "standard" channels to a digital one where you need to "rent" their damned box for $3 a month. To get a PBS station, mind you.. i.e. FREE

                      I use absolutely the lowest basic, basic service they have. I only want internet, and if they had a service that was -just- that, I'd be fine. I was the last one to go cable in my area, and that was only because the antenna came apart after a storm. It was there over 30 years.

                      I've another though, and I think it's time to put it up, because my cable now gives me only 9 channels that are worth anything. Not a big TV watcher, but I ain't paying for a box to watch OTA signals.

                      So, what is needed for an amp? Will the old V/U/FM one work, or one optimized for Digital?

                      Toast

                      Yo! Comcast - - ->>
                      Last edited by Toasty; 10-30-2010, 08:55 AM.
                      veritas odium parit

                      Comment


                        #31
                        Re: Building my first HTPC

                        Yes for OTA TV the old V/U/FM amps work fine. - They are just an RF amp.

                        Remember, the HD data is modulated into a RF signal for transmission.
                        It doesn't turn back into HD until it's inside the demodulator which is after the tuner.
                        So, all that's needed is an RF amp, which is exactly what the old V/U/FM amps are.

                        I have seen some VHF only or UHF only models made that don't cover the whole frequency range so make sure the amp is good for the full range.
                        They generally say something like [close to] 50-900 MHz.

                        Not sure what you mean by 'digital'.
                        Satellite digital does the same thing but they use a different frequency range for their RF.
                        The 50-900MHz amps won't work for Satellite but there are other amps that will.
                        .
                        Last edited by PCBONEZ; 10-30-2010, 03:56 PM.
                        Mann-Made Global Warming.
                        - We should be more concerned about the Intellectual Climate.

                        -
                        Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.

                        - Dr Seuss
                        -
                        You can teach a man to fish and feed him for life, but if he can't handle sushi you must also teach him to cook.
                        -

                        Comment


                          #32
                          Re: Building my first HTPC

                          Originally posted by Toasty View Post
                          Yeah, I'm at ~20 miles to transmitters, and the ones I want are all in the same general location.
                          My last house was at 24 miles.
                          Had a full size antenna on the house but I didn't want to tap into that and run wires just to test TV's out in the shop.
                          In the shop I used plain old Rabbit Ears and a 20dB.
                          With the Rabbit Ears inside I got 20 or so stations. [w/amp]
                          [Shop had a metal door at the end towards the TV transmitter/repeater farm on the hill.]
                          If I put the ears on the outdoor work table in front of the shop I got around 30 stations. [w/amp]
                          [Metal roof over the work table.]

                          So I was bored one day and,,,
                          I duct taped the rabbit ears to a 20' 2x4 and stuck them up in the air out in front of the shop.
                          I didn't actually check for every single station but I'm pretty sure with Rabbit Ears + 20dB Amp and 'line of site' I got all 40+ stations at 24 miles.
                          [That was a day with great weather too. That can matter.]

                          Were I in your shoes I'd either:
                          [Assuming line of site.]
                          Get a big antenna that claims it's good for over 60 miles and just use that with no amp.
                          Get a medium antenna that claims it's good for ~40 miles and use a 10dB or so amp.
                          Get a smallish [traditional style] antenna that claims it's good for 25-30 miles and use a 15-20dB amp.
                          [The over-kill is for those bad weather days.]
                          .
                          NO, I didn't do any math.
                          That's just an opinion from reading and tinkering.
                          .
                          Mann-Made Global Warming.
                          - We should be more concerned about the Intellectual Climate.

                          -
                          Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.

                          - Dr Seuss
                          -
                          You can teach a man to fish and feed him for life, but if he can't handle sushi you must also teach him to cook.
                          -

                          Comment


                            #33
                            Re: Building my first HTPC

                            Board lost -another- post. I think I'm just gonna type em in textpad from now on and copy-n-paste.

                            Anywho-

                            Short version: Need digital amp when you have TV and internet cable. Not needed for OTA digital. Correct?

                            Have old CM V/U/FM mast mount amp I'll use.

                            Thanks!
                            veritas odium parit

                            Comment


                              #34
                              Re: Building my first HTPC

                              Antenna I have is an old CM rated for Deep Fringe (70 miles). 9 foot long, I think it'll do nicely

                              I may chuck the rotator on it and with the amp, see if I can pull anything out of the grass.

                              Toast
                              veritas odium parit

                              Comment


                                #35
                                Re: Building my first HTPC

                                I'm not sure what you are doing now.

                                Are you wanting an amp between the cable box and the TV or between the cable box and the cable company?

                                cable company - cable box
                                You''l need to figure out what frequency they use.

                                cable box - TV
                                Will depend on what it connects through.
                                If it goes through the RF [antenna connection] then yes those amps are the right frequency..
                                But, as the cable box is essentially the transmitter [as far as the TV knows] in that set-up, I can't see that side of the box as having a signal strength problem. [Unless maybe you have a really long run of wire to the TV.]
                                .
                                Mann-Made Global Warming.
                                - We should be more concerned about the Intellectual Climate.

                                -
                                Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.

                                - Dr Seuss
                                -
                                You can teach a man to fish and feed him for life, but if he can't handle sushi you must also teach him to cook.
                                -

                                Comment


                                  #36
                                  Re: Building my first HTPC

                                  Today I was looking at my roof to see where it would be best to put an antenna and I saw that our old Look TV (a digital OTA tv service provider) antenna from a few years ago is still up there on a tripod on the peak of the roof. I always thought they had took it back when we canceled our service with them but luckily for me they didn't. I was kinda excited about this discovery but when I searched the digitalhome boards I learned that that antenna was for designed for higher frequencies than the OTA we have now :/ All is not lost though.. I can use the tripod to mount a bi-quad antenna and the existing antenna is already facing the right way and still has a run of coax attached to it

                                  Hopefully by next weekend I should have something built and mounted to try out If the bi-quad design isn't good enough I'll spend some time building something more complex.

                                  Also, I caved in today while I was out buying a 92mm fan and bought a Silverstone LC-17 case which was marked down to $100 because someone bought it and returned it because it was missing it's bag of screws. No big deal to me really. And then while I was waiting in line to check out, I was checking out their clearance bin and I saw some off brand NTSC/ATSC usb tv tuner for $10 so I grabbed that too. I don't have high expectations for it but I'll give it a try once I get everything assembled... which I'm off to do right now.

                                  Comment


                                    #37
                                    Re: Building my first HTPC

                                    Originally posted by PCBONEZ View Post
                                    I'm not sure what you are doing now.

                                    Are you wanting an amp between the cable box and the TV or between the cable box and the cable company?...
                                    Neither. Amp on antenna.

                                    My question was, if the antenna amp had to be digital capable, because of the change to the digital OTA signal (DTV). I didn't know if the older amps (analog) would pass the digital signal.
                                    veritas odium parit

                                    Comment


                                      #38
                                      Re: Building my first HTPC

                                      Okay. - Covered that in post 31. - I think you get it now but if not say so.
                                      Mann-Made Global Warming.
                                      - We should be more concerned about the Intellectual Climate.

                                      -
                                      Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.

                                      - Dr Seuss
                                      -
                                      You can teach a man to fish and feed him for life, but if he can't handle sushi you must also teach him to cook.
                                      -

                                      Comment


                                        #39
                                        Re: Building my first HTPC

                                        PC do outstanding upconversion on DVDs and quality stored files playback but the MAJOR issues I had is nearly all consumer (50 to 200 bucks) tuner cards/video capture cards I find are mediocre especially on SD. These tuner cards/video cards have too small bit depth and too low bitrate to capture sufficient resolution. Decent SD video feeds IS decent and I'm very disappointed by their lack of efforts on capturing nice quality and people deserves this. I have tried many cards so I know this issues.

                                        DMR-EZ28K I bought for about 250-270 was much better in this regard on capturing and processing but processor is not strong enough, it still trips up on some videos and some mosquito noise. And much convenient to use.

                                        There is high end video capture boxes (cost upwards of 400 and up) do exists to capture analog video with high level of quality but software to use is very few and expensive.

                                        FYI: HDTV stream is digital stream MPEG2 format and is not processed at all thru capture at end user. These decent capture card/tuners with MPEG2 decoders easily decodes and sent on to video card with little processing and preserves quality. The quality of video depends on how much stream is compressed and bit rate levels also the source of video quality before converted into HDTV data stream. That's the difference.

                                        PS:

                                        Currently these capture video device does not compress the datastream and requires powerful CPU and minimum mainboard chipsets. Issue is I have not found support for live watching even windows or linux even not capturing to hard drive which I do not need. Just live watching. These requires adobe's video suite or one other expensive software and they only capture to hard drive and is not for HTPC usage. That why I'm stuck at this moment. I did 1 year on and off researching options on quality capturing-live watching options and tried many software and they were terrible due to terrible choices of capture cards. I put no fault on the software, it is simply awful hardware used in capture cards and tuner cards.

                                        http://www.blackmagic-design.com/products/intensity/

                                        TVs have issue of limited watt this limits the power processing to capture video from tuner on SD channels and analog inputs. They are very poor that why I use DMR-EZ28K for SD inputs. Till then find another solution for better than this DMR-EZ28K quality.

                                        Cheers, Wizard

                                        Comment


                                          #40
                                          Re: Building my first HTPC

                                          Hi Wizard
                                          Have you ever tried any of the DVICO Fusion tuners?
                                          .
                                          Mann-Made Global Warming.
                                          - We should be more concerned about the Intellectual Climate.

                                          -
                                          Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.

                                          - Dr Seuss
                                          -
                                          You can teach a man to fish and feed him for life, but if he can't handle sushi you must also teach him to cook.
                                          -

                                          Comment

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