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Is buying a used SmartUPS a good idea?

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    Is buying a used SmartUPS a good idea?

    My old UPS (APC Back-UPS ES 725VA) has died. It might just need a new battery, but I'm in doubt. A few months ago I started getting a constant alarm (which I disabled in powerchute), and after the last outage a few days ago it now claims the battery isn't even connected.

    I'm looking for a new UPS. The models I've been looking at are in the 1200-1500VA range. My old unit was 725VA but I think it's a bit small now. The 1200-1500VA range might be more than I need but the pricing seems decent on those.


    For about $200, I can get an APC Back-UPS RS 1500VA.
    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16842101067
    Besides newegg, I can get similar models locally.

    For the same price (shipped), I can get this:
    http://cgi.ebay.com/APC-SMARTUPS-140...item4ced430c3d
    That's a used SU1400NET. They say "refurbished" but let's be skeptical and assume it's just an old UPS with a new battery. My understanding is that this is an old model, but I don't know how old.

    Is there anything wrong with buying a used SmartUPS? Assuming a good battery, do they pretty much run forever? Or do other parts tend to wear out?

    I know that in good condition, a SmartUPS is more desirable. I'm not too worried about sinewave vs step-wave, but presumably the SmartUPS also has generally better build quality.

    But I'm wondering if there's an aging issue to consider. Should I expect the new Back-UPS RS to last longer than an old and used SmartUPS?

    #2
    Re: Is buying a used SmartUPS a good idea?

    I have 4 SU1400's that I purchased off eBay several years ago. All are fine. These eat batteries every 2-3 years. RBC7 packs (2 - SLA-12V18) run about $70 + s/h.

    Your constant alarm and "no battery" condition is likely due to sulfation or the battery drying out. They self test and when they start alarming, they are telling you the battery has or is about to fail. Use it as a guide as to when to order new batteries.

    I have used this seller for my units: http://myworld.ebay.com/firebuy.com/
    This site for batteries: http://www.batterymart.com/

    I agree the "refurb" is a pile of BS. All they do is slap new batts in and check to make sure they function. Refurbishing these requires a lot of time to take them apart. The boards are proprietary and the chips are programmed at the factory. Unless APC says it's refurbed, I don't believe it either.

    Good Luck!
    Toast
    veritas odium parit

    Comment


      #3
      Re: Is buying a used SmartUPS a good idea?

      he is right.. battery backups last a long time unless something major happens to them (flood, lightning strike, etc.) and they do eat up batteries every couple years. the batteries are called sealed lead batteries (like car batteries but different design) but are not truely sealed.. they are make to vent excess pressure into the air or the batteries would explode, leak, etc.. as they vent they dry out and performance goes down until it does not even see the battery installed. if you take that battery out, ill bet if you shake it you will hear a sound that sounds almost like sand in it.. that means that it is completely dry and shot and needs replaced.. most likely the unit is fine, just needs new batteries..

      as for the refurb part.. i disagree.. sometimes it may be something small wrong with it from the factory that they fix that makes it refurbished.. loose wire, bad led display on the front, light not working, etc. and those would be very quick and easy things to replace or fix that would make it refurb.. but i do agree that a lot of times it is just a new battery tossed in and then labeled refurb..

      Comment


        #4
        Re: Is buying a used SmartUPS a good idea?

        The history of my bad UPS went something like this:

        1) Battery no longer held much charge. It was just good enough to deal with momentary brownouts, but not long enough to shut down. By this time it was obvious I needed a new battery, but I never bothered to buy one.

        2) A few months ago, after an outage, the UPS starting making a continuous beep. As in 100% of the time, always beeping. So I disabled the alarm using the software. I still heard it successfully switch to battery for momentary sags (it's standby, not AVR).

        3) After the last outage a few days ago, it claims there's no battery installed. And it won't even tolerate momentary outages anymore.


        From what you guys are saying, I guess there's a good chance a battery alone would fix it. The last 2 events (especially the constant alarm) made me think it had a bigger problem, but maybe not.

        Even so, I'm inclined to get a new (or maybe used) UPS with more capacity and AVR. I might still get a battery for the old one though and put it on some other machine.

        ==
        Originally posted by Toasty
        I have 4 SU1400's that I purchased off eBay several years ago. All are fine.
        How is the fan on these? On google searching, some people seem to complain about the fans running constantly and being loud. But it sounds like this is probably a fault, not normal behavior.

        Originally posted by kaniki
        if you take that battery out, ill bet if you shake it you will hear a sound that sounds almost like sand in it
        I have it sitting here so I tried shaking it, I don't hear anything. But I'm sure it's a bad battery, just wasn't sure if that's the only thing wrong at this point.
        Last edited by gdement; 01-28-2010, 03:02 AM.

        Comment


          #5
          Re: Is buying a used SmartUPS a good idea?

          lead-acid gel batteries never last,
          i keep getting people bringing me giant flashlites with them, they seem to last only a couple of years.

          you need to flatten & recharge them every few months to get the best life from them.

          Comment


            #6
            Re: Is buying a used SmartUPS a good idea?

            Originally posted by stj
            you need to flatten & recharge them every few months to get the best life from them.
            Isn't deep discharge very bad for lead-acid batteries? I've only heard of that being good for NiCd or NiMH.

            Comment


              #7
              Re: Is buying a used SmartUPS a good idea?

              <long story>

              I've just finished working on two used SmartUPS for a client who picked them up cheap AS-IS at an auction.

              First was a SURT3000XLI (July '07) which did exactly nothing. No signs of life no matter what. Battery packs for these aren't cheap (but the client is) so we didn't shell out $1K for a replacement pack. They use 16 off 12v5Ah high rate cells, like Yuasa NPH5-12. The total pack output was around 61V instead of >200V. APC Tech Support claimed that even with that - or NO battery - the unit should show lights/alarms if AC applied, else it has a fault. Nothing, nada, zip.

              Second was an OLD (1995 build) SmartUPS 2000XLI which APC-TS can't even find a reference for! Same story, no activity whatsoever when AC connected. Aaahhh, there is no internal battery pack for these, despite their weight. External only, 48V. Set up 4x 12V 100Ah VRLA's onto this and when connecting the pack there was a nice capacitor-charging spark then DC input current went to zero. Disconnected batteries, applied AC and it all went fine for about 30 secs, then it complained about no battery. Presumably the charged caps gave it enough to enable the control board. Reconnected battery system and it works a treat. Now wonder whether APC-TS were correct about the 3000. If only I had a 200V DC supply to check it out.

              </long story>

              The symptoms you described match a failed battery system perfectly. Having seen the build quality inside these two APC units, I'd have no hesitation buying a used one ("refurbed" or not) with the expectation of full normal function after fitting new batteries.

              Also recently was given a failed Eaton Powerware 5110 700VA unit. Battery was bloated. Replaced battery (12V 7Ah) and it is like new.

              Expect no more than 3 years at best from typical UPS batteries, whether a good brand or not. The charging systems on most UPS systems leave a LOT to be desired in terms of care and feeding of SLA/VRLA batteries. Unless you want to try and improve it (conceptually easy but difficult to implement in a proprietary environment) that is a fact of life.

              Pedro's rules for UPS:

              1. If you can't afford to replace the batteries on the first sign of malfunction then you can't afford a UPS.

              2. If you can't afford the disruption and/or data loss that comes with power loss, then you need a UPS.
              Friends don't let friends buy Samsung ....

              Comment


                #8
                Re: Is buying a used SmartUPS a good idea?

                If you pro-rate the batteries according to rule 1, it's damn cheap insurance per rule 2. For the 1400 and the RBC7 pack, it's about 10 cents a day for 2 years.
                veritas odium parit

                Comment


                  #9
                  Re: Is buying a used SmartUPS a good idea?

                  Sounds like the used SmartUPS is probably a better choice than a new BackUPS. Seller looks reputable, so I've now bought one. Thanks for the help.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Re: Is buying a used SmartUPS a good idea?

                    Great! Please post some feedback when you get it up and running.
                    veritas odium parit

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Re: Is buying a used SmartUPS a good idea?

                      I got the UPS about 1 1/2 weeks ago, or something like that.
                      It's working great. It didn't include the serial cable, which apparently is proprietary, but I got one of those later. It also didn't include the software, but I downloaded APCUPSD and "Powerchute Plus" (old). The newer Powerchute versions are supposedly on APCs web site but the download page is broken.
                      Anyway, I've settled on APCUPSD rather than powerchute.

                      The firmware was set for loose tolerances, so I tightened that up. It now kicks in for some power sags, as it should.
                      No outages yet, but it passed the unplug-from-wall test.
                      With just my normal computer running, it shows 21% load in the software. I unplugged it for 10 minutes and it still read something like 90% battery. I haven't tested the runtime because I don't want to deep discharge the battery without a reason, but it's obviously working fine.
                      I've never had it beyond 40% load so far.

                      The firmware reports the UPS was made in 1998. Battery date reports the same day it was shipped from the seller. The fan only runs when it needs to, so no noise issues.

                      All good. Thanks for the help.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Re: Is buying a used SmartUPS a good idea?

                        Figured you'd be happy .
                        Glad it worked out well for you.

                        Now, put the coin jar next to it and drop a dime a day in until you need batteries. PAID!

                        Good Luck with it!
                        Toast
                        veritas odium parit

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Re: Is buying a used SmartUPS a good idea?

                          Grats on the new UPS I have at 6 BackUPS in my house.

                          All purchased used about 30 bucks with free shipping just needed new batts (they don't power on if the batts are dead). It's such a steal when you think about it.

                          They make the one of active PFC PSU I have buzz a bit when its on but other than that they're great.

                          You can make the data cables for the BackUPS line dirt cheap buy a USB cable off e-bay clip off the B connector get the pinout online and crimp on an RJ-50 connector just had to get dies for my Eclipse Proskit crimper frame and get the connectors off e-bay. A $30 dollar APC cable for 4 bucks .

                          I had 6 UPSs to make them for so $180 bucks in cables was out of the question. Guess it shows you how much APC milks their customers not only on batteries but their crappy proprietary cables.
                          Last edited by Krankshaft; 02-16-2010, 10:32 AM.
                          Elements of the past and the future combining to make something not quite as good as either.

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