Powerware 9120 Online UPS

[shahab950122676]

Hi
Ihave powerwave9120
Please send me schematic diyagram

[Behemot]

Where exactly would we get one? They don't just lay by the road…

[AleXis6]

Originally Posted by Behemot

Where exactly would we get one? They don't just lay by the road…

I have the diagrams for 700, 100, 1500, 2000, 3000

[AleXis6]

I recently bought couple rarely used 9120 3000i (it seems slightly different inside by components).
I need only one UPS (second one will be a backup).
Now I am using Line-interactive UPS but the quality of electricity is not good and I want to replace current UPS to online.
Both powerware UPS in a working condition.
I was surprised that all soldered capacitors based on their datasheets have a service life just 1000-2000 Hr (at 85C or 105C).

I am going to install automatic fan regulator and add some fans - the idea is to reduce noise and organize air flow more efficient, but the average temperature inside will be increased.

Also I think to change all capacitors to new genuine brand name caps with more longer service life and higher ripple current. Due to onboard capacitors have been made about 15-17 years ago.
May be it is a very expensive idea and I need to replace just bad capacitors.

Could you please advice.

Also a question about low leakage current series.
there are Nippon KME series onboard with extremely low leakage current (.002CV ), could you please advice which series are successor of Nippon KME . May be KZM will be ok.

please see capacitors onboard

new png image thank you
instead of 470 µF * 450V I am going to buy Hitachi 680 µF * 450V HP32W681MRAS7 or please advice which is the best (due to price for this nominal is to high)? I never changed such big caps before may be I wrong and existing capacitors will work long time.

[Behemot]

Don't bother with the large caps, those rarely fail (unless there's like 80+ °C and you use for for decades 24/7).

You can try to replace KME with LE, they have slightly lower ESR but still higher than low-ESR series do, that may work OK.

Doesn't the UPS drive the fan by its own regulator?

[AleXis6]

Originally Posted by Behemot

Don't bother with the large caps, those rarely fail (unless there's like 80+ °C and you use for for decades 24/7).
You can try to replace KME with LE,

thank you
It seems that Nippon LE just 100µF as maximum for 25V.
There is also a couple 220 µF onboard.
I will try to find several different low esr capacitors with 8-10k Hr service life and manually check the best low leakage current.

I think UPS has some kind of fun regulator - noisy and super noisy modes :-)

There are 2 fans onboard - each has 2 wires connected in parallel so I hope my trick will work without faults fan on a display. I am going to install 4-7 fans and regulate their rpm automatically based on nearest radiators temperature. The power of all fans will be 2-2.5 times higher at full speed, my idea is to reduce rpm in standard UPS mode and in case of high temperature inside - temporary increase air flow and after quick reducing T then return to less noisy mode.
I never used online UPS before and I found at least 2 negative points:
1. energy consumption significantly higher compared to mine line interactive UPS
2. because of the first point, the fans work very loudly to prevent the temperature of the components from exceeding the allowable limits

In parallel with the adjustment of the fans, I will try to cover the space around the UPS with car noise insulation.

[Behemot]

leakage current is the last parameter that should bother you, it's generaly very small either way and it only matters in some kinds of audio/amplifier/radio circuits, not in filtering; watch ESR so it does not differ too much, some driving circuitry is tuned to certain ESR and shifting that too much could cause unexpected behaviour

cooling adjustment is always tricky, the factory controller setting is there for some reason, changing the cooling behaviour could end very badly

[AleXis6]

Originally Posted by Behemot

leakage current is the last parameter that should bother you;
watch ESR so it does not differ too much, some driving circuitry is tuned to certain ESR and shifting that too much could cause unexpected behaviour

but leakage current in theory may reduce working time on batteries isn't that?

about ESR agree with you, I repaired my old Metcal soldering station this weekend and it took me a couple of hours to pick up a capacitor. The ones with ESR less than 150 mOhm caused sync failure (although the description of the chip says the problem is <30 mOhm) as a result I put capacitor with ESR 200 mOhm

[Behemot]

Consumption of the UPS itself is by order of several magnitudes higher than any losses through capacitor leakage. If you want some real difference, upgrading power silicon components to those with lower R(ds) is a way to go.

[goodpsusearch]

It is not recommended to try to make this Online UPS unit more silent.

The fan is always loud on Online type UPSs for a reason. It's loud to cool the inverter that takes the DC and converts it back to (perfect) sine wave AC that goes to your devices.

You can go to the menu and select high efficiency mode. This converts it to line interactive unit somehow , the inverter is not working all the time and your devices get mains AC this is why it is also called bypass mode. This works until the micro-controller senses that there is something wrong with the quality of the AC , you can set the upper and lower voltage limit and maybe also the Hz limit. When voltage is lower or higher than the limit you set on the menu, it will turn on the inverter and switch to it.

Same goes with Hz. When it senses that the frequency of the AC is not close enough to 50Hz it will do the same. But by setting it to High efficiency mode it partially defeats the purpose of having an online UPS in the first place.

[AleXis6]

sorry for the late reply. my current UPS with simple battery balancers still work well and I have time to setup Powerware9120 without urgency.
(I made battery balancers 3 years ago and has been surprised, now batteries could survive not 2 years as previously but 5+ years at least for now. powerware 9120 has a different "clever" charging algorithm but I will put battery balancers also for 9120).
as about the capacitors:
Could you please advice what is the replacement with better working life for the following series:
1. Jamicon TK - I read in this topic that Rubicon YXF is a good replacement and has better lifetime.
I already have 100uF x50v YXF.
2. Nippon KME, based on their datasheet the replacement is KMG but lifetime is not better.
somebody at this forum recommended Rubycon PX, Nichicon VZ, Panasonic NHG.
but also the lifetime is similar low.
3. Nippon SME 2200uF x16v it seems is also unavailable series
I have UHV1E222MHDAZX Nichicon 2200 uFx25 V low impedance
is it possible to use it here?

4. AD 10uFx350VAC - non polyar capacitor, based on the information from the internet - it is one of often problem with 2000VA, 3000VA.
as I understood correctly it filters out the DC component and provides a pure sine wave at the output.

как изменить тип картинки
its size is specific
L=52.5 lead spacing seems as 47.5mm
W =22-25mm

I just found couple similar capacitors but with different size and lead spacing
https://www.digikey.com/en/products/...mSeq=384885175

https://www.digikey.com/en/products/...mSeq=384885159
could you help please - what is the best analogue of AD 10uFx350VAC ?

[Behemot]

lead spacing should not be a trouble, you can easily bent it to make it fit, if you have enough room around to fit the capacitor itself

KME, KMG and similar are standard/general purpose caps, you can try experimenting with LE, that's long life series but also has lower ESR, which may sometimes break some of the driving or feedback circuitry which is tuned to certain ESR/capacity

BTW what's a "simple balancer", diode and resistors between accu's?

[AleXis6]

Originally Posted by Behemot

lead spacing should not be a trouble

the length of the lead is just 5 mm

as about LE thank you, I tried to find,
but even digikey doesn't has any from my list (100x25v, 220x25v)

[Behemot]

have a look for untrimmed ones than?

[AleXis6]

Originally Posted by Behemot

l
BTW what's a "simple balancer", diode and resistors between accu's?

scheme similar as you described also works - 2 zener diodes (6.8V) + 1 resistors 5W
I tried it for a year .
it works but slowly and not accurate.
after that - I took TL431, tip127 some resistors and car lamp 2-4W.
and setting it up for 13,7V for each battery, if the voltage > 13,7 - lamp is lighting.
last weekend there were problem with electricity - UPS worked from batteries (2*6 in series -Ippon smart winner 2000) 1.5 hours and voltage dropped just to 12.6V for each battery. I check all batteries - the voltage difference was just 0,05V. the batteries are very old (CSB from 2013 year)
the scheme with my elements:

[AleXis6]

Originally Posted by Behemot

have a look for untrimmed ones than?

capacitors like AD 10uFx350VAC usually with very short leads (5mm) at least which are available

[Behemot]

than you can only solder piece of wire to it as a last resort

that pretty much looks like linear regulator for each accumulator, burning the excessive voltage on the bulb; while that works, it is not very efficient, as the lamp will be drawing about 250 mA, that's twice what accumulators do without this circuit on float (which also tends to equalize - a bit), that is going to stress the charger a bit more (no problem for things like Smart-UPS which output several amps; a problem for thing like Back-UPS RS which outputs about 1 A on the charger)

plus it will consume electricity which could be a concern these day, if it was 1 W per accumulator, with two its over 100 CZK a year just for that, and new Yuasa SW280 costs me about 500 with 5+ year rated life; so pretty much no benefit here, it will cost same or more per year of lifetime than a new accumulator!

I think what would be enough, if the float voltage is not too excessive, to just provide a parallel path for current, similar way as in old half-bridge PSUs for balancing input filtering caps - but some large (10k+ depending on voltage) resistor in parallel with each accumulator, and a schottky diode in series with each such resistor (so it does not discharge them as much when the UPS is turned off; it will still do a bit because of leakage current over the diode).

[AleXis6]

Originally Posted by Behemot

while that works, it is not very efficient,

lamps are constantly lighting rarely. for example during fast charge phase for 3 hours.
usually 1or2 just lights for several seconds, others - not, because 6*13.7=82.2V, and Ippon supplies 82.15V for six batteries charging.
but without this scheme new batteries have been degraded in 2 years. I lost 2 complects fast.
and yes it is not for Back-UPS due to it usually has just 1 or 2 batteries.
the main problem is not a consumption, but place and additional size.
I rebiuld external batteries block for one of the complect

[goodpsusearch]

Originally Posted by ToryStreetLights

Anybody still listening :-) I have a Powerware 9120 700 watt version that appears to be working perfectly but not charging the battery. The MUR460 gets very hot and had shorted, it's 1k 5 watt power resisistor load gets very hot, as does the chopper Fet driving it and the small Fet further on in the chain. Replacing the MUR460 with similar diodes immediately creates their demise with a short again. There doesn't appear to be any circuits around for this machine which I find very unusual, as I have worked at board level for over 50yrs.

Any observations will be gratefully accepted - Thankyou in advance :-)

Something similar with the quoted text happened to me 2 weeks ago.

I stressed my unit because I connected it to 2 external car batteries and it tried to charge them.

I have done this several times through the years and never had any issues, but this time, both batteries were i really bad state and I think that 1 of them partially or totally shorted.

Noticed message on UPS LCD screen: Charger fault

checked batteries and found that batteries charged not working any more and batteries have been catastrophically deeply discharged.

Opened up the unit and noticed area around MUR460 diode seriously discolored from heat (check pics attached)

Disconnected everything and discharged circuit and then checked diode with multi-meter and it was completely shorted.

Bought replacement diode and replaced the shorted one. (pics attached)

While working on it, I checked nearby components and found nothing wrong.

I also checked as many caps as I could and found them all OK.

Regardless of this, I decided to preemptively replace 2 Jamicon TK caps that were very close to the failed diode.

I used Samxon and Nichicon HE as you can see in pics attached.

[goodpsusearch]

Originally Posted by AleXis6

capacitors like AD 10uFx350VAC usually with very short leads (5mm) at least which are available

On my unit, this cap has different value, possibly because my unit is of lower output VA.

I checked it with esr meter and chinese transistor/resistor/capacitor tested and found that its capacitance has decreased and is definitely out of specs.

But I didn't have this non polar cap in stock to replace the worn one, so I let it unchanged. I hope this is not too bad for the unit or the output AC it provides.