That's a lot of primary cappage

[jazzie366]

2000uF of primary capacitance on a 400W power supply? What the fuck my Corsair RM1000 which can do 960W on the 12v rail alone doesn't even have that much input filtering.

This is from a Zalman LEII


They may be CapXon, but with that size they'll never even see close to their spec rating.

But they they fuck the whole supply up and throw some ChengX in the secondary of the power supply, WHY!?!?

Why Zalman? You make such nice cases and CPU coolers!?? The thing is though, I've seen people saying they've gotten two years of no problem usage out of these on reviews. So I'm perplexed, is Chengx another CapXon or...?

[budm]

Re: That's a lot of primary cappage

Those two caps look to be used in Voltage Doubler circuit so the effective capacitance is 1000uF.

[dmill89]

Re: That's a lot of primary cappage

I find it somewhat comical they make such a big deal about it being dual transistor forward, that isn't exactly a new or revolutionary design and 90%+ of people buying PSUs don't know/care about PSU topologies anyhow.

The cap choice is definitely sub-par, though this seems to be common in "budget" PSUs from major brands, they tend to be fairly solid designs, but the sub-par cap choice dooms them to failure in no more than a few years (or much less if loaded, a few years ago I had a Thermaltake TR2-RX 550W [CWT built], after about 2 months of ~60% load, two of the Jun-Fu caps had bloated).

[jazzie366]

Re: That's a lot of primary cappage

I find it somewhat comical they make such a big deal about it being dual transistor forward, that isn't exactly a new or revolutionary design and 90%+ of people buying PSUs don't know/care about PSU topologies anyhow.

The cap choice is definitely sub-par, though this seems to be common in "budget" PSUs from major brands, they tend to be fairly solid designs, but the sub-par cap choice dooms them to failure in no more than a few years (or much less if loaded, a few years ago I had a Thermaltake TR2-RX 550W [CWT built], after about 2 months of ~60% load, two of the Jun-Fu caps had bloated).

Yeah I agree with you in every way here.

The thing is, I'm seeing not the greatest caps in a lot of higher end PSUs from good manufacturers. Let's take the PSU I mentioned, the Corsair RM1000.

The caps that are used in it are two Matsushita/Panasonic 400v 390uF as filters. That's a great cap choice, also considering this PSU is 250$+ online. Well, the rest of the caps aren't so great. The driver board uses small Teapo caps on it, for secondary it uses Taicon for the 5v and 3.3v rails, and CapXon for the 12v rail. There are a lot of caps on the mainboard, and where the modular connections are made, there are even more soldered to that board. All of those put together, that probably makes it pretty good for the computer.

I've actually had this psu for about 2 years so far, it has been under 350W of load constantly. Now this might not sound like a lot, but here's the twist: the fan in the PSU will not turn on until it sees 400W of load. This was running a bitcoin miner so the load has been constant, 24/7. I took the miner offline due to it finally dying about a month ago. None of the caps are bulging at all, all tested perfectly.

I guess it just depends on the usage and if the caps are going to be run hard.

[Drack]

Re: That's a lot of primary cappage

That's what I love about Superflower, on the high end they only use Japanese caps, chemicon most of the time

[TELVM]

Re: That's a lot of primary cappage

... RM1000 ... 250$+ online ... Teapo ... CrapXon ...

For $140 you can get a Supernova G2 1000, all lytics Chemicon.

[petehall347]

Re: That's a lot of primary cappage

its all to do with the bean counters upstairs .

[dmill89]

Re: That's a lot of primary cappage

The thing is, I'm seeing not the greatest caps in a lot of higher end PSUs from good manufacturers. Let's take the PSU I mentioned, the Corsair RM1000.

Corsair pisses me off with the mediocre/garbage caps they put in even higher end units. It amazes me that they sell any of those when the SeaSonic SS-1050XP3 is in the same price range, has all Japanese (Chemi-Con) caps, and is 80+ Platinum certified (versus the Gold certification on the RM1000), but I guess there are too many people who will buy anything with the Corsair name and think it "must be good".

I understand cheap caps in a budget PSU (don't support it, but understand why it is done none the less), but they should absolutely unacceptable in a $100+ unit these days.

[jazzie366]

Re: That's a lot of primary cappage

Corsair pisses me off with the mediocre/garbage caps they put in even higher end units. It amazes me that they sell any of those when the SeaSonic SS-1050XP3 is in the same price range, has all Japanese (Chemi-Con) caps, and is 80+ Platinum certified (versus the Gold certification on the RM1000), but I guess there are too many people who will buy anything with the Corsair name and think it "must be good".

I understand cheap caps in a budget PSU (don't support it, but understand why it is done none the less), but they should absolutely unacceptable in a $100+ unit these days.

Yeah, with Zalman in their units that are just over 50$, I see better brands like Taicon (owned by Nichicon) in their PSUs, and once you hit around 100$ and up, they use all japanese (chemi-con) caps. However, in their lower end units they use absolute garbage capacitors. Some people reported the caps exploding right out of the box and throwing shrapnel out of the PSUs. I honestly think chinese caps need to be regulated to shit like japanese ones. Then it'd be better. But as we all know, that's not going to happen.

The thing is though, again like with all these capacitors, we've got Taicon and CapXon in the RM1000, but the thing has taken a fucking beating for 2 years straight. 2 years, no fan on at any point in that time. The thing was so hot it was uncomfortable to touch. Yet none of the caps failed. It's really weird, I think a lot of manufacturers know more than what they're letting onto when it comes to good caps and bad caps.

[Stefan Payne]

Re: That's a lot of primary cappage

That's what I love about Superflower, on the high end they only use Japanese caps, chemicon most of the time

There are a couple of CapXon in the Leadex II :P
but better than the NCC KRG they should be...

Besides:
That unit looks loke an oldish no PFC one, so 1000uF Primary Caps were rather common in thos oldish designs. Though I'd say it's best to avoid it because it doesn't smell like an outstanding PSU...

2 years, no fan on at any point in that time. The thing was so hot it was uncomfortable to touch. Yet none of the caps failed. It's really weird, I think a lot of manufacturers know more than what they're letting onto when it comes to good caps and bad caps.

No, our 'knowledge' about caps is just outdated - very outdated.
And CapXon for example mentiones a 2014 KF and a 2014 GF series with up to 5000h lifetime. So there was something done.

And heat is just one factor in the lifetime of a cap!! And not neccissarily the most important one...
We all forget the ripple current when we take a look at capacitors...
And that's pretty damn important too - as much - if not more - than the ambient temperatures...

The other thing is that the designs got better, so it's very probable that they stress the caps far less so less ripple current...


And by the way:
If I see things like 125°C (Unicon) caps or Nippon CHemicon KZH or KZM, it makes me worry more than less.
Because why should a manufacturer ever use a more expansive series if they could get away with a cheaper one? The marketing is about 'japanese!!!111' Not Highest quality with 10kh lifetime or so...

[Behemot]

Re: That's a lot of primary cappage

Those two caps look to be used in Voltage Doubler circuit so the effective capacitance is 1000uF.

Dafuk? Rly ppl, nobody realised those are 200V caps in series, with effective capacitance of 500 uF?!

Anyway, it is so frelling easy to go to Zalman and check that even the ZM700-LE II has the same picture. So the 1000uF caps are likely only in that model and the ZM400-LE II would have something like 560uF ones. You guys would be very poor journalists lol

[TELVM]

Re: That's a lot of primary cappage

Indeed that's what they did on the ZALMAN ZM400-LE, 280uF combined:



http://ru.gecid.com/power/zalman_zm400-le/?s=all

(Supposing that 'Cheng' crap really reads 560uF each, that is).

[RukyCon]

Re: That's a lot of primary cappage

Indeed that's what they did on the ZALMAN ZM400-LE, 280uF combined:



http://ru.gecid.com/power/zalman_zm400-le/?s=all

(Supposing that 'Cheng' crap really reads 560uF each, that is).

I noticed some nicon KME caps in that PSU which are also cheap crappy and not a good cap to use at all. [especially in a PSU]

[budm]

Re: That's a lot of primary cappage

Dafuk? Rly ppl, nobody realised those are 200V caps in series, with effective capacitance of 500 uF?!

Anyway, it is so frelling easy to go to Zalman and check that even the ZM700-LE II has the same picture. So the 1000uF caps are likely only in that model and the ZM400-LE II would have something like 560uF ones. You guys would be very poor journalists lol

You are correct, I type faster than my brain and the word 2000 on my mind.
Yes, they are in series.

[Drack]

Re: That's a lot of primary cappage

Those chengx are really undersized for the silkscreen on the PCB

[jazzie366]

Re: That's a lot of primary cappage

Indeed that's what they did on the ZALMAN ZM400-LE, 280uF combined:



http://ru.gecid.com/power/zalman_zm400-le/?s=all

(Supposing that 'Cheng' crap really reads 560uF each, that is).

I buy a lot of cheap chinese junk to tear down for fun, and here's what I've found between all of the cheng/chang/chong varities:

ChengX: the upper end of Cheng, ChengX caps will read properly and take the voltages they are rated. Using a size higher than what they will actually undergo improves the lifespan. ChengX caps can be commonly found in the TPA3116 audio amplifier boards from china. They have a surprisingly good sound for having a crap cap. Lifespan unknown.

Cheng: Lower version if ChengX, I had some of these from an eBay lot of 1000 craps for use with things like breadboards. They're eh, not good at all. Don't know if they fake their sizes though, never checked.

All the rest from here are SHIT.

Chong: Absolute shit, all of them are fake caps. Chong caps are 1 voltage rating lower than what they claim. For example, if you have a 10v cap from Chong, it's actually a 6.3V cap, there's a youtube video of someone putting 12-14V on a Chong branded 16v cap, it failed on camera inside of seconds.

Chang: Same shit as above, only the voltage rating is proper and the capacitance is a lie. I have some that I'll post pics of when I'm at the shop on the cap meter.

Chenxing: Reaaaaaaaaaly weird caps. I have a 24v 4A power supply, everything inside of it is great except for the caps. 2 1000uF 25V Chenxing's, and 1 100uF 400V cap same brand. These caps are skinny. Like anorexic capacitor skinny. But their capacitance is in spec...? I'll check them again after using it for about 6 months so far with no issue. They're really weird though.

[RukyCon]

Re: That's a lot of primary cappage

I buy a lot of cheap chinese junk to tear down for fun, and here's what I've found between all of the cheng/chang/chong varities:

ChengX: the upper end of Cheng, ChengX caps will read properly and take the voltages they are rated. Using a size higher than what they will actually undergo improves the lifespan. ChengX caps can be commonly found in the TPA3116 audio amplifier boards from china. They have a surprisingly good sound for having a crap cap. Lifespan unknown.

Cheng: Lower version if ChengX, I had some of these from an eBay lot of 1000 craps for use with things like breadboards. They're eh, not good at all. Don't know if they fake their sizes though, never checked.

All the rest from here are SHIT.

Chong: Absolute shit, all of them are fake caps. Chong caps are 1 voltage rating lower than what they claim. For example, if you have a 10v cap from Chong, it's actually a 6.3V cap, there's a youtube video of someone putting 12-14V on a Chong branded 16v cap, it failed on camera inside of seconds.

Chang: Same shit as above, only the voltage rating is proper and the capacitance is a lie. I have some that I'll post pics of when I'm at the shop on the cap meter.

Chenxing: Reaaaaaaaaaly weird caps. I have a 24v 4A power supply, everything inside of it is great except for the caps. 2 1000uF 25V Chenxing's, and 1 100uF 400V cap same brand. These caps are skinny. Like anorexic capacitor skinny. But their capacitance is in spec...? I'll check them again after using it for about 6 months so far with no issue. They're really weird though.

I have 2 power supply's that have two of the brands you mentioned.

[Wester547]

Re: That's a lot of primary cappage

Well, not to necropost, but I also understand why PSU companies use bad caps, although I too don't condone it, especially in server equipment. It has nothing to do with cost and everything to do with lead times, and where the PSUs are manufactured. Most PSUs are made in China, so it makes more sense to use capacitors made by Chinese or Taiwanese companies, in China. Even if you use Japanese capacitors made in China, because their materials are imported from Japan, lead times will inexorably be longer. And when you are producing millions of units at any given time, time IS money and whatever is coming off the spooler on the assembly line is not a matter of specific brand but whatever's available so as to make the best time possible for sake of meeting the demand (largely the reason for the intermingling of good and bad brands in certain PSUs and on motherboards too). Again, I don't support using crap caps either, but I can certainly understand why it is done.

[Behemot]

Re: That's a lot of primary cappage

That only applies if you constantly change what you are making and also have poor scheduling.

If you make mostly the same and only now and than change it for something else, you can just keep ordering large enough quantities of the same caps. Plust developing anything new takes a lot of time, there is no reason to order the neccessary caps before you start production, so you have them ready on time.

Besides, there is no time difference between China, Indonesia and Japan made caps, hell not even between manufacturers, not much anyway. Chemi-Con caps take the same time no matter where they come from. Rubycon caps take about 2 week longer, that's most likely just about logistics.

You may not trust me but I order 5000-10000 caps each year from authorised distributors, increasing constantly, so I'd say I know a bit about that…

[Wester547]

Re: That's a lot of primary cappage

I think it's more of an issue when you order directly from the factory, which takes considerably longer. Your points are duly-noted, however.